Bringing Tea to the Coffee Party

March 1, 2010 at 7:10 am | Posted in Political | 222 Comments
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The Washington Post contained an article Friday detailing an emerging counter to the Tea Party movement. It has been billed the Coffee Party. The following is an open letter to its founder, Los Angles based video documentarian Annabel Park:

Dear Ms. Park,

Please accept my congratulations regarding the establishment of your citizen activist group. I understand the Coffee Party is “very grass-roots, [with] no official organization.” These are characteristics shared with its elder counterpart, the Tea Party movement.

As an active participant in the latter, I would like to extend an olive branch to pursue your stated goal of “[promoting] civility and inclusiveness in political discourse.” Based on the article chronicling your group’s formation in Friday’s Washington Post, I believe you may hold a couple big misconceptions regarding the Tea Party movement and the philosophy which drives it. I would like to address these with the objective of promoting understanding, not necessarily agreement. I am under no delusion we will see eye-to-eye on specific issues, but hope you agree there is value in accurately understanding that with which you disagree.

First, a disclaimer is required. I do not speak for the Tea Party movement, as I imagine you cannot claim to speak for your cohort. I share my perspective with the caveat other Tea Partiers may disagree. Similarly, I do not expect you to answer for the claims of others, but feel compelled to address those reported in the Washington Post.

Let us begin with a point of consensus. I agree wholeheartedly with the statement of your colleague in the “LA Speaks” YouTube video. “There is a great divisive culture between the two [major political] parties now. The healthy environment of a conversation has almost completely evaporated.” I believe healthy conversation is possible. However, a crucial prerequisite is a common goal. If, by conversation, your cohort means an avenue toward clear understanding, that is achievable. If, however, the objective is consensus on specific issues, that may not be achievable. As we shall explore here, there are fundamental principles underlying the Tea Party movement which cannot be compromised.

The greatest misconception your side seems to have of the Tea Party is its “obstructionist” nature. The Washington Post describes a goal to “obstruct reform and discourage thoughtful deliberation.” One of the speakers in your video claims the Tea Party “[wants] the status quo” or “wants things to stay the same.” Another states she is “fatigued by the obstruction of the progress of the Obama government.” This idea that the Tea Party is against progress is untrue, if by “progress” we are referring to positive change in the conduct and quality of life. We simply disagree regarding the origin of progress. The Coffee Party seems to think it comes from government. The Tea Party believes progress can only derive from people, and too much government obstructs it.

Dave Henderson is quoted in the Washington Post article as saying, “The political mood right now is ‘blame Obama for everything.’” This is also untrue. The president is not the sole focus of the movement’s ire. Republicans are also highly criticized for the failure of many to adhere to their articulated principles. As you may have noted in recent weeks, the collective response among the Tea Party to claims staked by the GOP has been a cry of foul. While individual Tea Partiers such as myself may opt to participate in the Republican Party, the emergent consensus among the movement is a desire to remain non-partisan, decentralized, and inclusive of disparate activist groups unified by a few core principles. As Robert Gaudet relates in the Post article, those principles include “fiscal responsibility, free markets, [and constitutionally] limited government.”

Here we return to the point about obstruction. Presumably, when your cohort bemoans an obstruction of progress, they refer predominately to the health care reform debated in Washington over the past year. On this issue and others, Republicans have been characterized as “the party of ‘no.’” Conservatives and libertarians as a whole, represented in overlapping parts by the GOP, the Tea Party movement, independents, and even some Democrats, have been accused of being unwilling to negotiate. We can negotiate. We are willing to achieve consensus. There is, however, a clear framework within which such consensus must be bound – the Constitution of the United States.

It has become popular in the culture to advocate “thinking outside the box.” Indeed, there are many opportunities in life where unconstrained thinking may lead to innovative solutions. However, there are certain contexts in which innovation must always be constrained. If, for instance, you entertain the hypothetical question of what you might do with a million dollars, the answer, while perhaps enlightening in some existential way, is of limited practical use without actually having the million dollars. In America, government is similarly constrained. It must operate within the “box” of constitutional limitations. When proposals venture beyond those constraints, consensus is not possible. One team cannot blame the other for refusing to play outside the bounds.

I hope you found something of value here, and invite further correspondence if you fill it could be productive. One issue where our movements appear to agree is term limits and the need for citizen legislators. There may be other points of commonality which can be discovered through the civil political discourse you crave.

Sincerely,

Walter Scott Hudson

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  1. Nice rational letter.

    I’m sure you’ll be called a racist or something in response.

    • Vince – that’s a really negative attitude. I did however
      see racist-type signage at some of the teaparty rallies.
      Not necessary.

    • No one calls Tea Party people racists for no reason. This letter is in no way racist so no one called it that. People call Tea Party people racists when they say something racist (see Tom Tancredo at CPAC.) And it does look poorly upon the Tea Party that they do not disown that kind of racist speech.

      It also looks poorly when folks like yourself always bring up the “oooh, they are calling us racists” card when nobody is doing that. It’s a persecution complex and it’s a waste of time.

      How about debating the issues and not in an idealogical way, in a real world way. Tell me what your stance is on Social Security & Medicare?

      • >Tell me what your stance is on Social Security & Medicare?

        They are facts.

        They are promises made to the people who spent thier entire lives paying into them.

        They are ponzi schemes.

        They will bankrupt the country.

        The social assumptions that formed their economic model no longer exist

        They are unconstitutional yet obviously tolerated

        The better these programs are fairly ended and we move onto a pay-for-yourself model , the better, because in a post-abortion, post-birth control world. there will never be enough youth to tax for the benefits of the older generations.

        And had the Constitution been respected, then the monumental financial disasters coming our way wouldn’t have happened.

        Social Security is already running deficit.

      • Hi Marvin -

        I spent about five minutes searching for info on Tancredo and CPAC. I was not able to come across anything he said there. Perhaps you refer to his opening remarks at the Tea Party National convention? If so, I assume you’re referencing to his call for a literacy test? If so, I am not sure how that is inherently racist. It is certainly true so-called literacy tests were used in the past as fronts for racial discrimination. But that says nothing of Tancredo’s intent. Maybe the reason Tea Partiers have not denounced his remarks is because there was nothing overt to denounce.

    • Rational letter, yes. Your post seems to be a part of our problem with actual discourse. My hope is to have a conversation WITHOUT comments like “you’ll be called a racist”.
      A perfect example of why we are stuck in a constant mud slinging contest. That is the problem. Walter is absolutely correct that he cannot speak for all people in his “side”. We have to agree that we definitely disagree on the core principles. To make that a racial issue is just throwing out a thing to distract from the real issue.
      We on the left are the same boat, we have similarities, just a completely different vision about how to reach a goal, what IS the role of government and there can be no agreement on such DIVISION.
      On racism: many folks know that racism is alive and many wish it were over and see affirmative action as taking something away from X and giving it to Y. We have generational differences because of those laws that forced people to see those of a different race. Consequently, the younger generation is not “color blind”, but they are more accustomed to having daily interaction that is not full of tension.
      I grew up in those beginnings of desegregation and see progress.
      I know we have not yet overcome, but pretending that we have is only going to continue a more reactionary phase to say, but look at this and look at that. I think admitting that racism exists is a better way to “get past that part and move forward to a slow generational change. Some people will not be reachable on this, we know it.
      I am sick of the race baiting, gay baiting and it only detracts from governing.
      If one pays attention to what the minority is doing in Senate and House, they are acting as if they deserve to assert their wills more than the voters that voted for change that includes young people getting involved and actively doing the things necessary to make change.
      Calling names does not foster that end result. Taking the bait would seem “reactionary”, rather than acting with a goal in mind.
      We cannot get anywhere in we have to keep fending off racial, gender, sexual orientation or other divisions. This is a game and the sooner people understand that they are being “played” by using tactics, the sooner we can analyze what is happening on Capitol Hill.
      The Minority leader is saying contradictory things, trying to say we have a health care reform plan, but it is torte reform and across state lines, which is code for lawyers are bad for business and states that have least regulation will sell health care. The things the progressives are fighting is “corporate take-over” of government.
      There are those on the right that react, saying you hate rich people.
      WRONG! Fairness is best, not winner take all!!!
      We on the left see value in providing many paths to success and the role of government is to take road blocks and fairness of laws for all citizens.
      My view is we need balance: we want FAIR taxes, FAIR trade, FAIR laws that reward people that employ our citizens with fair working conditions and wages to upward mobility. When people are given fair wages and working conditions, they will work their hearts out for their employers. The employers must clearly define their goals of what they produce or provide, then deliver it to consumers and not just the stock holders.
      We believe it is good to have healthy people, with doctors diagnosing and treating, using their knowledge and resources, not using the insurance company’s “bottom line” to define what treatment is given, at what cost, to whom.
      Government is responsible for General Welfare of its people, Government is the people, not the Corporations of the people of “old money” or whomever has had the good fortune or all the privileges laid at their feet.
      We believe the best thing is giving hope to all people, they can have a piece of the American pie.
      Some of this dog an pony show is really just trying to keep the money and power to a certain “group”, called “the haves”.
      We have much in common with tea party folks, if we could actually have a debate. We are more interested in how our government operates, the priorities, YES, the spending is on the list (Medicare SPENDING is at issue here), not so much the size of government. It is the fact that incoming revenue is waning and outgoing payment (profiteering?) is waxing that troubles us. It is the fact that corporations are determining what treatments for whom, PLUS the cost is hurting employers and individuals, causing many to forego getting insurance, causing costs to rise more for those that buy insurance.
      Insurance works by small amounts collected from a large base and when one needs to file a claim, the insurance pays the appropriate person.
      Not really much different than home owner paying property taxes for fire department that comes to put out the fire at whatever building is burning.
      The left does not want to see greed of insurance companies and Wall Street strong arming patients and being the illustrative “death panel”.

      • The racism comment was directed to Vince, not Marvin.
        Sorry about some of the typos, too.
        We have Constitutional things at the forefront, “”in order to form a more perfect union” we have to address what is best for the “General Welfare”. Health is as important as security. We have become too imbalanced, thinking corporations will provide jobs is no longer valid, seeing the outsourcing. Joblessness means less consumer spending.
        We have many agreements with tea party. I think there are fears of big government (big brother is also a concern for the left) , but there is in place Social Security, Medicare, Veteran Hospital that are “government run”. Their administration is actually very well loved and low cost.
        Only those that want to return to wild west days of no taxes are against Social Security.
        I just love being able to drive on maintained roads across the country!

      • Sandy, I want you to know I read your post in its entirety. It’s too comprehensive to thoroughly reply to, as I have many comments to read and other responsibilities to attend to. But I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

    • I took over Walter’s page today.

      Walter, who I don’t know.. sorry about that :) It was a slow day at work.

    • No, not racist, although anyone, including you, who suggests the absence of racism in the teaparty movement is a willfully ignorant and myopic fool. And probably a racist too. Methinks you protest too much.

      This was a well-reason essay. It does however omit two salient facts (as exibited by the uberconservative “originalists” on the supreme cout last month: 1. the Constitution means what we say it means (and the Teapartyistas do not have a lock on any such “truth”. 2. If you oppose EVERYTHING, then yes, you are, by definition, an obstructionist. If you don’t like the sound of that, then get out of the way and try cooperation occasionally.

      • Oh Noes! An unknown angry little Leftist on the Internet declares he detects racism in some undefined group of unknown people at an unknown time

        And then this political bigot declares that I’m probably racist too! (That’s what political bigots do of course. All in the name of being compassionate of course)

        Oh what the world do without the Left’s Thought Police.

    • I have spoken to many people who are part of the Teaparty movement and from each and every one of their mouths I was told that they would preserve the American way of life and values “BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY”. That is a VERY scary statement.

      • The idea is to get the politicians to have the same reaction you did.

  2. It is good to see Vince starts things off with a useful comment. The discussion of how different programs of Government fit within the constitution is a valid point. It is too bad people like Vince immediately try to poison the waters of dialogue by injecting imflammatory nonsense.

  3. Vince P — Mr. Hudson extended an olive branch, and you just hacked it apart.

    • seriously. Vince missed the point.

  4. I’m a member of the Coffee Party and I appreciate your letter. If we could have more civil debate I think this country could move forward.

    In response to your points I would like to ask you if you think Social Security & Medicare are also unconstitutional and if so does that mean you would like those programs discontinued?

    • I’m finding the “Coffee Party” call for civil debate a little too disingenuous and a little late.

      When ordinary citizens began expressing their concern over most of the Progressive agenda, including some life-long Democrats who started the PUMA movement, they were excoriated and called some very uncivil things.

      Go to YouTube and watch the Coffee Party videos there. Most of them start off by calling for “civil and respectful” discourse, before launching into a bashing of people who attended Tea party rallies. The one by the hairdresser in DC is extremely offensive; it’s an anti-white, bigoted screed.

      If the Organizing for America v2.0 people, aka “The Coffee Party” truly want to engage in “civil and respectful” discourse, I suggest they revisit their opening remarks.

      Cause right it smells and tastes like bitter Axelrod puppetry.

      • That actually goes the same for the Tea Party members.

    • Yes, to both questions. I do think Social Security and Medicare are unconstitutional. I do think they should be disbanded. I hold entitlements to be fundamentally the opposite of rights, because they require infringement upon others. I would like to see my generation take it upon ourselves to fund these entitlements for our elders while making other arrangements for ourselves, paying for their mistakes, and sacrificing for the prosperity of our children. These unfunded liabilities cannot stand eternal. It is not a problem you can tax your way out of.

  5. A well written letter, but this line bewilders me: “The Tea Party believes progress can only derive from people, and too much government obstructs it.” So what is government made of? Robots? Our government is made by people who are voted into office by other people. I don’t think government officials should be in charge of all aspects of our lives, but they are an important … See Morepiece of the puzzle. It’s not just one or the other, black or white. This seems to me to exemplify one of the main differences between the Tea and Coffee Parties. Tea Partiers see things in black & white. Coffee Partiers see the shades of gray in between.

    Vince P’s extreme response exemplifies this kind of thinking.

    • The Constitution was written By the People, For the People. Where else should progress come from?

      • Actually it was written by our nations first politicians, including it’s first president. They were ALSO people who happend to be citizens. The same can be said for our current president and all of our other elected officials. So yes…change comes from teh citizens of the USA. We make our will known to our govnerment, and it enacts the policies necessary to manifest that will. Simply saying “government can’t help and we need to do things ourselves” is shortsighted. How are we collectively supposed to get anything done all acting alone?

      • There are these things called Cities, Towns, Counties, Parishes , States etc…

        Who is saying there is no option of government assistance?

        If the people of State X want to do Program Y , that’s up to them.

        This notion that folks like myself (and I’m not saying that you said this.. I’m just using your comment to make my point) are against creating systems of dependency is incorrect.

        I am against it at the national level , where it is illegal to establish it.

    • Thank you, Jennifer.

      You are correct; government consists of people. But that does not make government equivalent to people. It is an institution empowered to compel behavior through force. It derives that power from the people, and is therefore inferior to them. Its proper role is to compel behavior only in defense of individual rights, to protect us from abuses by others. When some people co-opt government to utilize its force against others outside this limited scope, it is fundamentally no different than a criminal abusing you on the street. It is wrong to mug someone. It is equally wrong to enlist government to do it for you.

      Again, I must reiterate I cannot speak for all Tea Partiers. But I do not regard my personal views as black and white. I think it would be more accurate to say there is more contrast and sharpness in my paradigm. Certainly, there are grey areas in life. Were we to delve into foreign policy, I could show you all kinds of grey in my outlook. Domestically though, the role of the federal government is pretty well defined by its founding document.

      • While, “[The government's] proper role is to compel behavior only in defense of individual rights, to protect us from abuses by others,” certainly sounds like a Jeffersonian ideal, it is one that ignores that there are real collective action problems in our society (as opposed to government). One such problem is the risk of a catastrophic heath event affecting an uninsured person who, for the sake of argument, is the breadwinner of a family of four.

        That person might be uninsured because they are underemployed, or perceived themselves healthy and didn’t want to spend the money or was exercising their unalienable right to not be insured. However, now that this person is sick, what is to happen? Is society (remember we’re not talking government yet) to turn this person away from medical care?

        Go ahead and strip away the compassion and charity (which I thought most of you adhere to) and look at the bare economics. Let’s suppose a $60k procedure would give 100% chance of recovery. What do you think the traumatic absence of a parent does to the longterm productivity of the children? (I mean no disrespect to particular single parents or their children – I’m talking overall risks.)

        What happens now is that society steps in anyway, the care is given and the bills are written off. Organized charities carry some of the load but the VAST majority of it falls on the hospitals and the providers. The resulting dynamic is that everyone else who consumes healthcare who can pay for that healthcare gets stuck with the bill. Employers who pay for insurance (those that are left), individuals who are chronically ill who know they must have insurance, people with no insurance but the means to pay in spite of the fact that it puts them in the poorhouse.

        So the collective action problem is that a societal good (don’t let the father of two die on the doorstep of the hospital) is being paid for not by all of society, but by only those who pay for their own healthcare services. This drives up the cost to the point it creates a “death-spiral”. More people and companies drop insurance forcing insurers to raise premiums on those left, etc. etc. Are we ready to talk about government yet?

        The real answer is some form of global insurance. Pool the risk of catastrophic illness across as big a population as you can, and the monetary cost to individuals goes down. If we decide then that all of society should shoulder the risk that any of us might face a catastrophic illness which we have the technology to cure, but at a cost which a very few of us can afford, then we ask the government to do one of two things: 1) create an individual or employer mandate – everyone must have and to the extent of their ability pay for health insurance; or 2) set up a single payer system where the “premium” for your “health insurance” in reality is collected the same way as the rest of your taxes.

        You can then start debating whether the mandated insurance is for catastrophic care or everything, how you distinguish the two, the effect of everyone skimping on health maintenance, what about long-term illness that costs a lot over the long term, or the cost/benefit of having a for-profit middle man (the insurance company) and the alleged dangers of bureaucracy. That’ll point you towards the scope of the mandate or single payer.

        I think I’ve outlined the scope of the problem. What about the power to solve it? The Constitution is in reality not all that clear. You have the preamble (please oh please tell me the Constitution can’t be read without the effect of the Declaration of Independence, you just gave me a slam dunk on the effect of the preamble…) the “General Welfare” and the commerce clauses vs. the enumeration of powers and the savings clause. We’ve disagreed for over 200 years on how read all of them together.

        Many of us believe that was the point of the founding fathers: here are some broad principles and we can’t agree precisely on anything else. You, our descendants, get to color in the lines. Too much certainty about what one KNOWS the Constitution means, to me betrays someone who decided before they started reading.

        Overall, I too want a limited government. But I also want one that can solve the real collective action problems we face, even those that arise due to an abundance of charity and compassion for our fellow men.

      • It is nice to see at least some semblence of civil debate here.

        If I may ask Walter, when you state: “Its proper role is to compel behavior only in defense of individual rights, to protect us from abuses by others.”, what role then should government take in protecting individuals from corporations that may abuse the system? Isn’t that regulation, and aren’t we really talking (in the debate on healthcare) about the degree to which gov’t should regulate, or change the rules on, how the healthcare industry operates? If the healthcare industry had conducted itself more responsibly I believe these actions might not be necessary. I also believe(for better or for worse)that the only player able to make real change in this might be the federal government.

        I guess then, I’m wondering, if it is not the role of the federal government, who then actually has the will and ability to change the way things are done?

        thanks

  6. As a member of the emerging Coffee Party, I welcome your reasoned discourse, thankfully devoid of hyperbole and name calling.

    I am curious, since you mention the healthcare overhaul specifically as violating the scope of the Constitution. How so?

    For the record, I am genuinely curious, not looking for a flamewar.

    • I too would like to hear an answer to this question. If the new health care bill violates the constitution even without a public option – then what does the Tea Party think about Medicare & Social Security? I don’t possibly see how they can be against the health care bill constitutional grounds which is mostly just regulations of the health insurance industry and subsidies if they are not also against far more “socialist” programs like Medicare.

      BTW: It’s impossible to make the claim with a straight face that the new health care bill is more “socialist” than Medicare or Social Security. I think if people realized what the Republicans/Tea Party is talking about in regards to “socialism” they would see it as a farce.

    • The entire matter falls outside the scope of the enumerated powers in Article 1, Section 8. The power to regulate commerce is explicitly applicable to commerce between the States and “foreign nations,” not the People. The Ninth and Tenth Amendments require matters not covered by these enumerated powers be left to the States or the People. Any redistributive taxation is, by its very nature, a violation of the Fifth Amendment which requires no “private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”

      Of particular interest to those concerned with the incestuous relationship between corporations and government should be the individual mandate, which I believe is still a component of the proposed legislation. It is an unprecedented requirement to purchase a specific service from government approved vendors under penalty of law. It is fundamentally no different than government mandating you purchase food, shelter, clothing, or any other provision from a market it controls.

      Now, if one of the states wants to try this, which a few have, more power to them. Let people vote with their feet. But it’s not the role of federal government.

      • This is an interesting way to portray what I consider an effort to expand the number of insurance provider choices available. The “government approved vendors” would be the same vendors currently available. There are no other choices than that currently. Also, currently, you are generally limited, depending on where you live, to only a few of the insurance providers that exist across the country. One of the proposed changes is to make *more* of those providers available to you, not fewer. So you can’t object because it would be taking your favorite insurance away. If that’s not the objection, than what? You object to it being mandatory? This is not something I find particularly pallatable myself. I recall it was mostly Republicans who sought this provision, though Democrats were either in support or did not strongly object. It is also similar to auto insurance. Every state in the union requires that you purchase auto insurance if you wish to own a car. The only difference here is that you could chose not to own a car, and that this is a federal law. If every state passed legislation that required you to buy health insurance, where would your voting feet take you?

        I’m not sure we have time to get into the long version of constitutional law, but it is a very old and tired song to hear that income tax and nigh on everything else is unconstitutional due to the 10th amendment. In this day and age the federal government requires money to function. It provides funding for things that everyone uses. Aid given to states, public works, infrastructure, military defense, educational grants, Medicare, and Social Security: there are your just compensations for income tax. If you want to talk about making the income tax more fair, so that it is not putting undue burdens on the poor or middle class (or wealthy, though we’ve yet to see that) then that is absolutely open to discussion, but please spare us any talk of no tax of any sort being lawful. This has been argued already, before all manner of courts, and not once has it been found to violate the constitution. Mostly because there is an amendment TO the constitution to permit it. Do we need an amendment to provide healthcare to people? Do all federal laws need rather to be amendments?

        How are we to do ANYTHING as a country if we all must act as seperate states? Shall we be the Disunited States of America? If the federal government cannot regulate anything, then what exactly is it’s function?

        I truly am curous about how you suggest we enact policy as a nation without allowing the federal government to enforce federal level laws. I have heard the arguments for why you and those like you think they shouldn’t be able to do anything time and again, and while I can debate these things, what I really now want to know is what you actually propose we DO. I can’t accept that the proposed actions are invalid without some alternative course of action. You can’t just say “the states should take care of it” and leave it at that. What is the actual plan?

      • Walter, thank you for the explanation.
        I’ve got to admit, I’m probably not as well versed in the intricacies of the constitution as you apparently are.

        That being said, it seems like you’re stating that an entire class of existing law is not constitutional (based on your interpretation of the constitution). Clearly the supreme court does not agree with your interpretation (or these laws would no longer exist).

        Certainly “just compensation” is seen as the services provided by the government in return for your tax dollars??

        It seems like I’m missing some key bit of information here.

      • Historically the Commerce clause is far more open to interpretation than you claim. You’re also conveniently leaving out I, 8 (i) the “General Welfare” clause. The Government has the power to tax for the “General Welfare”. Hence, many programs raise funds at the federal level and the states administer them.

        I think your representation of the dynamics of the bill is a little off. Keep in mind you can’t but any insurance except from “government approved vendors” nor can you buy health care from anyone but a “government approved” doctor. The power to enforce that remains at the states.

        Insurers would have to meet certain requirements to participate in the exchanges (and therefore sell to people receiving gov’t assistance) and the policy you buy would have to meet certain requirements. Otherwise I could buy a $10 policy that would pay the bills only if I hit my head on a Tuesday, and the whole thing would be pointless.

        Oh, and btw the exchanges and the public option insurer were originally Republican ideas.

  7. The question I’ve always found myself facing when in conversation with a “Tea Party” member is: government based on which Constitution from when? Do all the Amendments count? Because some of you seem to think that the Amendment allowing a federal income tax isn’t legitimately part of the Constitution, even though that dates to Abraham Lincoln. I think you all agree that women should vote … maybe even run for President … but that Amendment wasn’t added until the 1920s. And I think the answer is: you haven’t decided and don’t feel a need to. In essence, you’re less Libertarian than anarchist. (“No authorities of any kind!”) Am I wrong?

    • Actually, the 16th Amendment (direct tax) dates to 1913. The income tax of the 1860′s had a sunshine clause (terminated after civil war)…

      Amendments fundamentally change the original Constitution. There is nothing wrong with that. However, we can repeal Amendments (e.g. Prohibition). There are several amendments needing to be revisited and possibly revised.

      There may be Amendments We need to add.

      The real problem We have between the Coffee & Tea Party is this: Do we fundamentally change the Constitution to reflect modern/conventional philosophy & ideology or do We change it to reflect governance as elucidated & promulgated in the Declaration of Independence?

      • Actually Matt, the real choice is not that at all. The real choice is “Do we live in the 21st century and have a government that can actually function?’ or “Do we try to have a modern functioning nation of 300 million people, surrounded by implacable emnity while adhering to the philosophies and values of a small elite group of 18th century farmers?”.

      • Lets live by JRT748 philosophy of feeling self-fullfilled by forcing everyone to live under his system of tryannical compassion!

        We dont need Natural Rights or Individual Rights. No , we live by the arbitrary political whims of JR and his wisdom!

        Clearly Madison, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin are lightweights compared to JRT748.

        I so enjoy this.

    • If you’re asking me to answer for myself, yes, you would be wrong to classify me an anarchist. To be an anarchist would defy reason, because anarchy is not a sustainable condition. Anarchy presents a void which will be filled by something. In the absence of enforced law, might makes right. To abolish all government for fear of tyrannical government would invite tyranny from individuals. A libertarian supports a government empowered to protect the rights of individuals without violating those same rights. It is admittedly an ideal necessitating a practical application; and there is certainly room to debate how rights should be protected. But I think the impression amongst Tea Partiers is our federal government has ventured far beyond this constitutional mandate and needs to be reigned in.

      Regarding the 16th Amendment, I have been privy to some of the arguments against its proper ratification, but have not afforded the matter adequate attention to comment authoritatively. Regardless, I think it is appropriate to question the wisdom of some of the amendments in retrospect. For instance, I would like to repeal the 17th Amendment. I think it has adversely affected the operation of the republic. The intent of the framers was for the Senate to represent the States, while the House represented the People. Electing senators by popular vote creates a somewhat redundant structure. The point of a bicameral legislature is to temper passion with reasoned deliberation.

      I’m editing this comment to echo the point Matt alludes to above. While it is certainly true the Constitution can and possibly should change over time, it is of the utmost importance that the motive for such changes be consistent with the sentiments of liberty. As the Declaration states, “Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes.” There should be a fundamental justification which “provides new Guards for future security.”

      • Let me ask you honestly: as someone who values liberty so highly, which I can certainly respect, what is your position on gay marriage rights? The constitution provides citizens with the right to marry, as several supreme court decisions will verify. This was the grounds for overturning laws against interracial marriage in the past. Notably this was seen as not adding or inventing any new rights, which is what some people call “judicial activism”; the right already existed in the constitution and the courts merely defended that right from legislation that would impair the liberty of individuals.

        If all citizens of the USA have the right to marry according to the constitution, do you support gay and lesbian marriage? If not, how do you reconcile that with your other views?

      • This is a ‘stinky’ evolutionary issue. If we do not want man to interfere (Global Warming) with Mother Nature than why do we interfere (legislate) in natural selection (man & man and/or woman & woman). It seems a bit hypocritical.

        Certainly, marriage, between a man & woman, follows the laws of natural selection. While a man seeking out a man is an individual choice to circumnavigate those laws. Do we believe in evolution or not? Yet, we would legislate for gay marriage (anti-natural selection) and against man-made global warming (pro-natural selection). Re-educate me.

  8. Well said, but I do have to disagree with you on the categorization of the shared beliefs of the Coffee Party. My interest, what drew me in, was the focus on civility and honesty in political dealings from politicians, media and activists alike. Nothing more, nothing less.

    • Does that mean you will be calling on Congress to scrap the monstrous Obamacare bill that most of America, from both sides of the aisle, have stated they don’t want, and demand that Pelosi-Reid start over from scratch with the following “civil and respectful” standards:

      (a) the bill will be crafted in a genuine bipartisan effort, be in easy to read language, and be posted online for ordinary Americans to read it before the bill is debated. Remember, part of the “change” Obama promised was more transparency.
      2000 + pages of pork and payback to special interests is not “transparency” and it is NOT in the best interests of America.

      (b) call on Congress to have ALL the debate and negotiations televised on C-SPAN like Obama committed to SEVERAL TIMES during the campaign? See transparency in (a) and “change we can believe in”. C-SPAN has offered to televise the debate, much to the horror of the Democratic majority. NO backroom deals allowed — no Cornhusker/Louisiana purchases made out of public view.

      (c) have a smaller bill that addresses the most pressing issues: tort reform, malpractice insurance reform that is putting physicians out of business, insurance reform and tighter regulation (pre-existing conditions, pools for small businesses, etc, etc that all sides can agree on as necessary first steps to reform that don’t create a massive new entitlement our nation can NOT afford?

      If you say “NO” then it is clear that there never was a serious desire for “civil, respectful and cooperative discourse”. Because of all the above meets those objectives, and is in keeping with what Obama promised as part of “changing Washington”.

      • In other words you want a bipartisan approach that dumps all the current bill, which at least 50% of the population agrees with, in favor of a new one that the Republicans can agree with (re: dictate terms of).

        The Republicans have made it clear several times – have admitted – that they will not agree to anything the Democrats or the President want. The GOP nearly destroyed this country, then lost to Obama in a landslide – what Reagan called a “Mandate”. They fear any success by the Democrats will further marginalize the Republican Party.

        The Tea Party – which claims to be bi-partisan yet rejects anyone not so far right they would scare Nixon. They were started by a former Republican office holder, adopted and promoted by FOX News, and manipulated by the GOP. The Coffee Party is its counter, and I say, about time.

      • I’m affraid I have to object to the idea that “most of America, from both sides of the aisle, have stated they don’t want”. It is not the healthcare reform bill I would have wanted. That one would have had a public option. However you can’t count me as against it for that reason. If you ask people in a poll “do you support Obama’s healthcare reforms” it is true that only 40% or so say yes. However if you ask them if they support an unnamed bill that does all of the same things, 70%+ say yes. The 30%+ that changes their minds do not know what is in any of the proposed healthcare bills, they’ve been swayed by soundbytes against something that would benefit them without really having the time or opportunity to examine it. When you make them actually think about it by presenting the ennumerated proposals, they logically decide that they would support something that benefits them directly.

        This has been your civil, respectful response.

  9. Where were all you retardicans love of financial responsibility when bush and dick were borrowing 50 million dollars PER day from China for 7 of his 8 years? WHY TF didn’t you dips listen to us while we could still salvage America’s future? You’re refusal to hold bush responsible for unconscionable financial waste is why were are here today!!

    • “retadricans” … nice way to slap the olive branch out of his hand, douche.

      • plurgid, unfortunately, we will have lovely trolls in our own group too. Sad.

    • Your language was far too loaded to get a reasonble response, however, the point is very well taken. Anyone who blithely sailed through the Bush years thinkin’ we were gettin’ small gevenement, and is suddenly “shocked” at the huge deficits we now face, isn’t being intellectually honest with themselves.

      A true philosophical stance takes more than putting on a three cornered hat, and acting upset because their party is out of office, particularly when their party took over in 2000 with a budget surplus and then passed massive tax cuts for the rich (under Senate reconcilliation, no less) which was supposed to fuel a huge economic boom (anyone remember that?), and now bemaon that we are in a recession and that ends don’t meet.

      • I agree with you Russ. It was not “fiscally responsible” to cut taxes without comparable cuts in spending. That’s the thing; cutting taxes is popular. Cutting goodies is not.

    • I suspect Obama’s election was strongly contributed to by discontent among conservatives and libertarians regarding Bush. That is why Democrats saw fit to paint a potential McCain administration as a third Bush term, because he was universally unpopular at the end.

    • If you had only phrased this in a more pleasant manner it might have been constructive…way to go.

  10. There is much we can talk about here. One area is how we see the the constitution. Is it fixed and unbending? Or is it a living document that can be amended. The founders (Madison and Adams ) specifically allowed the document to be somewhat ambiguous. The document is open to interpretation by both the Congress and the Supreme Court. Our societ has grown and become more complex. Our understanding of the founding documents need continual reflection in light of the changes in our society.

    • I think many people in America regard the “Founding Fathers” as some kind of omnipotent, flawless supermen with an eternal overarching plan for all of America for all of time (like Moses but with better dress sense).
      The more I read, the more they strike me as an unusually intelligent group who were muddling along as best they could with every expectation that their descendants would wish and need to tweak government and the documents guiding its function on an ongoing basis.
      America has changed; its citizenry has changed. We need different things. Social Security was introduced because people could no longer count on their 8 children, all dwelling within half a mile, to support them in their old age (which might well end in their fifth or sixth decade). As for depending exclusively on one’s own savings and investments, well, ask Bernie Madoff’s customers how well that went.

      • That sums up my vision of the founding fathers, the Constitution as NON STRICT Constitutionalist.
        It would seem self evident when reading “in order to FORM a more perfect union” the intent was to make provisional changes as warranted. Obviously, we are no longer slave and property owning voters with the “correct” genitalia.
        It seems our Supreme Court is being taken over by those that see it as strictly as “originally written”.

      • I agree some people may see the Founders that way. However, I think the more thoughtful among us make a sounder distinction. The authority of the Founding Fathers was not in their supreme nature, but in their recognition of the role of law. They “got it.” They understood the necessity for the law to bar both governor and governed. They understood the point of the law was to preserve individual rights. And they understood what a right is, its intrinsic nature. The reverence for the Founders is not of them as men, but of the insight with which they were blessed. For instance, I am a huge fan of Jefferson. Jefferson owned slaves. I have African ancestry. On its face, this may seem perplexing. But I separate the man from the arguments, though he certainly had many admirable personal characteristics in spite of his deplorable behavior.

    • Do you mean “continual reflection” according to modern/conventional philosophy & ideology or according to founding principles?

    • This is true. I think the fundamental difference between the conservative and progressive outlooks is the degree of flexibility perceived. Reagan often made the case that, if freedom is lost here, there is no where else to go. I make the case by describing America as the Last Exodus. Historically, people have responded to tyranny by extricating themselves from a society they find disagreeable and forming a new society elsewhere. Well, we’re all out of land. Liberty has to work here. There are plenty of alternatives to it elsewhere.

  11. Walter, It’s fantastic to see someone from the TP open dialogue with those of us in the CP. Speaking for myself, my main issue with your group – in my experience of it – is its insistence that its positions are far and away those of most American citizens. I don’t agree with a lot of the TP’s stances on many critical issues, but I DO agree that Washington is broken, and I DO think that we all can and should work together to change as much in our system as we can so that our differences CAN be worked out productively. I completely support conservatives AND progressives’ desires to be heard and represented, but I think it’s critical that we can agree to disagree, and to acknowledge that those who DO disagree with us are not less patriotic, or less committed to our way of life… sometimes opinions just differ. I hope the flaming BS can stop so that all of us can find our common grounds, because of course numbers DO matter.

    • amen

    • I think if one were to apply the Tea Party ideals to real world scenarios such as whether it’s better to have a tax cut for the rich or cut out Medicare there really is very little support for them.

      This is what has allowed the Tea Party to be somewhat successful – they have not made any real policy points, instead it’s all very vague stuff about “small government” and “follow the constitution” – these are things that sound good in theory – but when you apply what they actually mean in real world scenarios – very few people support it.

      • It’s tough for the Tea Party as a whole to generate specific policy positions, because it’s not really designed toward that purpose. It’s not a political party with a platform. It’s an activist movement centered on principles. Principles are guides toward policy, not policy in and of themselves. When it comes to specifics, there is a great deal of disparity within the Tea Party, everything from advocates of Ron Paul’s isolationist foreign policy to neoconservative nation builders, bible-thumping social conservatives to Ayn Rand Objectivists and libertarians. You’re right to highlight this as one of the reasons for the movement’s success. The moment it becomes locked down to a specific platform, it is no longer inclusive and loses steam. That’s why efforts to marry it to the GOP have been resisted.

    • Can you enumerate the ‘stances on many critical issues’ you do not agree with the TP on?

      And can you clearly identify ‘the flaming BS’?

    • Everyone wants the backing of the majority, as if consensus were validation of truthfulness. It is an unfortunate tendency.

  12. I am just curious: If you were compos mentis at the time, where were these ‘reasonable’ positions 5-10 years ago?

    How do the Baggers propose to conduct the governance of 350MILLION–one third of a BILLION–people?

    What government services do they propose to reduce or eliminate?

    Do they propose to heal the wall between Church and State? How?

    Do they propose to revoke the PATRIOT ACT? Restore the 4th Amendment?

    Term-limits? What else ya got? Tort Reform? Flat tax? Term limits do nothing but make the permanent lobbying class more powerful.

    How about public funding of elections? Or is that “meddling”?

    Free markets are a rhetorical ploy of the CorpoRats, a myth aqnd a lie, behind whides the corruption of the commercial oligarchs.

    What I hear in all this crap is a distrust NOT of Gov’t per se, but THIS Gummint, led by this fellow who is distressingly neither blonde or blue-eyed.

    • Just a note from a Coffee Party member: the points you are trying to make would tend to be diluted by name-calling and apparent disdain. I don’t know if you have joined CP or not, but note that Tea Party members prefer not to be called teabaggers nor implied to be racist. Some might be; some might not be; and to communicate with each other, the CP desires to keep the discourse civil and respectful. Thanks.

      • Agreed Julia. It’s unfortunate because I think Woody makes some great points – but they are lost when you use the name calling. People just tune that out. I think that’s why so many people tune out the Tea Party. It’s impossible to take a group seriously when they don’t act in a serious manner.

        On the other hand, I understand Woody’s anger. But we have to try to rise above it. That’s what the Coffee Party should be about. Rising above the anger and speaking intelligently and coherently on ways to move our country forward. I really believe if we look beyond talking points and discuss the issues rationally that progressive view points will win out.

        Why? Because they are logical. They make sense. I don’t think the same is true about the Tea Party ideas. That’s why I welcome an open discourse based on facts and reason. I honestly don’t think most Tea Party people have really thought out their viewpoints when it comes to real world application.

        They say they are for a balanced budget and they also say they are against taxes. But at the same time they say things like “keep your government hands out of my Medicare.” You can’t have it all. You can’t have Medicare without taxes.

    • I stopped reading Woody’s post after the first two lines – and I’m a coffee party member. That is just the kind of thing that turns me off.

      • I read Woody all the way through and agree with him. I am joining the Coffee Party as a foil to the Teabaggers because I see Democrats not stpping up to do the right thing, and I fear it is because they too have sold out to the corporations and DO NOT REALLY WANT CHANGE. They are the other side of the same coin as the GOP.

      • Well, Shannon, what Woody and yourself don’t seem to understand is the importance of listening rather than projecting assumptions. I can’t converse with people who already know what I think. It’s not productive for either party.

    • >How do the Baggers propose to conduct the governance of 350MILLION–one third of a BILLION–people?

      By the American principals of Self-governance, Liberty and a Limited Central Govt.

      The only way that so many people, over such a vast area of land , can , in the long run, peacefully live together is if the various parts of the country do not feel being dominated by people in other parts of the country.

      Did you think the 14 States got along with one another? No. They couldn’t stand each other, but they knew that if they were able to united behind that which they had in common and allow each State to retain those things which were particular to them then they can all prosper.

      So that means not mandating unalterable nationwide abortion law.

      That means not mandating nationwide welfare schemes that a significant number of people want no part of.

      It means giving the States their Sovereignty back

      It also means repealing the Amendment XVII and restore the Senate to being the Embassy Row of the States.

      This top heavy government is destroying this country.

      • I made a few typing errors.. like “14 States” please overlook them

      • Your ideas don’t really apply to the 21st century and that’s obvious as soon as you try to say what they mean in a real world scenario. A large majority of Americans do not agree with getting rid of federal programs such as Social Security, Medicare. Nor do a majority of Americans agree with the idea of getting rid of basic civil rights and “leaving it up to the states.”

        In the 1700s the world was a much different place. It doesn’t make sense to apply what worked then to today without thinking about the logistics of how it actually works in today’s world.

        This is the problem with Tea Party ideology.. it’s based entirely on theory and not in the real world. It just doesn’t work in the real world.

      • My ideas happen to be the law of the land.. and if you want to change them, there is an Amendment process so that we all can decide the issue and not just you.

      • “the law of the land” is Social Security and Medicare which by your definition of the constitution are unconstitional… I think that makes it quite obvious how much merit there is to your definition in the first place.

        The constitution is not nearly as restraining as folks like yourself believe it to be.

      • Social Security and Medicare will basically solve themselves when the Government goes insolvent in a decade or two. I priced that into my answer.

      • States Rights, as in a series of small countries banded together, ended. It was called the War Between the States (the American Civil War, and in the place of the original loose federation of small countries there is now one large Representative Democracy. We are now a 21st century nation of multiple millions with the resources to wipe out poverty and need at home and to lead the way to doing so everywhere. What is standing in the way is corporate greed and a populace that is close to 50% reactionaries who see any change in the status quo as a threat to themselves and their way of life, even as that way of life is disappearing.

      • >States Rights, as in a series of small countries banded together, ended. It was called the War Between the States (the American Civil War, and in the place of the original loose federation of small countries there is now one large Representative Democracy.

        I would say the XVII Amendment was the nail in the coffin. But like with many things in this country not everything is set in stone and should a new attitude become entrenched in this country regarding State’s Rights as a consequence of the imminent economic unraveling of the country, you will see it in your life time.

        >We are now a 21st century nation of multiple millions with the resources to wipe out poverty and need at home and to lead the way to doing so everywhere.

        What resources? We’re BANKRUPTED. And the resources we do have are off limits because we care more about the rights of moths than people.

        Here are the great resources of the United States after 70 years of “Caring for * (Bought off constituency of govt)”

        US National Debt
        12,435,863,783,000
        Per Citizen: 40,273
        But since so few citizens actually pay taxes
        Per Taxpayer: 113,576

        The current Deficit for this year right now is
        1,402,294,138,000

        Debt of the States
        1,088,963,858,000

        Debt of Cities/Counties
        1,869,994,945,000

        US Total INTEREST payment due
        1,893,065,750,000

        US TOTAL DEBT (Govt + Personal + Business)
        54,766,156,665,000
        Per Citizen 177,359

        That’s what we owe in debt.

        The following is what we squandered by promise to pay:

        Social Security Unfunded Liability
        14,192,860,154,242

        Prescription Drugs Unfunded Liability
        18,778,207,214,244

        Medicare Unfunded Liability
        74,676,127,545,146

        Total Unfunded Liabilities
        107,647,168,754,214
        Per Citizen 348,613

        or over 100 HUNDRED TRILLION DOLLARS

        Perhaps that number isn’t that bad if we consider the value of our assetts?
        Small Business Assests: 4,718,536,612,241
        (Evil Music)Corporate Assests: 12,957,991,315,211
        Household Assests 57,907,013,124,542

        Total Assessts: 75,583,543,455,424
        Per Citizen: 244,775

        Per Citizen:
        Assets: 244,775
        Debt: 177,359
        Unfunded Liablity: 348,613

        Net: -281,197

        Ooh I’m sorry.. 21st Century America’s only great resource is the incredible stupidity of its people.

        Please… keep your damn compassion to yourself. I would say the emotional greediness of the people who cheer lead for the above have done way more to destroy this country than (scary music) “corporate greed”

        >What is standing in the way is corporate greed and a populace that is close to 50% reactionaries who see any change in the status quo as a threat to themselves and their way of life, even as that way of life is disappearing.

        Well actually the ones who seem to be defending the status quo are the ones who want to expand the above “system”

        I mean gee.. what a success! But hey I bet you feel so good about your intentions. That’s all that matters anyway , right?

      • Jonny refers to the apparent complexity of 21st century applications. Rights do not change with the passage of time. They are what they are. A republic is purposed to preserve rights. That is its chief objective, supreme to observing the whims of the People. It does not matter how many people want Social Security or Medicare. 50% + 1 does not justify the violation of an individual’s rights. Contrary to Shannon’s assessment, the republic did not devolve into a “representative democracy” upon the conclusion of the Civil War. Democracy is just the tyranny of the majority, fundamentally no more desirable than the tyranny of one. Under democracy, you could have slavery if enough people wanted it. We all agree it is preferable to have law supreme to the whim of the people, law which prevents something like slavery. Abolition of entitlements, which constitute a softer modern slavery, is entirely workable in the real world. To argue otherwise is somewhat analogous to the practical arguments used against the abolition of slavery, i.e. we can’t free the slaves because it will ruin our economy. It is morally and legally required (there is a hierarchy of law in this country where the Constitution is supreme). Plus, as Vince states, it’s only a matter of time before these programs collapse under their own weight. The choice becomes whether to aid their demise in a controlled fashion which may preserve the republic, or let things proceed chaotically to avoid the politically incorrect reality.

      • “Principles have no real force except when one is well-fed.” – Mark Twain

        I find it interesting to read about how all these so-called “principles’ are the basis of their movement, when they didn’t exist so long as Bush & Co. were running up the national debt after they blew all the surplus.

        At 58 I’ve seen and heard all these “constitutional” arguments before, and what most of them boil down to are : We don’t want ANY change that might give someone else any say or power in what happens, ESPECIALLY anyone who isn’t one of US.

        What’s both amusing and frightening are the arguments against any sort of collective effort, like Medicare or Social Security. The idea that indiividuals can possibly provide such programs for themselves while meeting the ordinary expenses of daily life is so ludicrous as to be laughable. Yet, people like Vince apparently believe this to be true.

        Most of our communities exist because people realized that they could not provide things like roads, fire protection, etc., on their own. Face it, this is, you guessed it, a collectivist solution.

        Now we must realize that health care is essential to a
        sound nation. Other countries have already done so. There is no sound reason that people should have to bankrupt themselves to obtain treatment, nor should they have to hope that their insurance company will approve treatment they have paid for.

        The politics of NO have to stop. We are the United States of America, not a bunch of separate republics.
        That issue was settled in 1865.

      • Jim: People can’t save for thier own retirements? Well I guess not when their own government has placed the following on their back:

        Social Security Unfunded Liability
        14,192,860,154,242

        Prescription Drugs Unfunded Liability
        18,778,207,214,244

        Medicare Unfunded Liability
        74,676,127,545,146

        Total Unfunded Liabilities
        107,647,168,754,214

        What’s hard to understand about this? I don’t get it. When all of this collapses, all the people who have relied upon Daddy Government are going to be PROFOUNDLY SCREWED. What world do you live in? Do you think the laws of economics are going to pass us by? Do you care that you’re telling people to cede all responsiblity for thier future lives to a government that is going to collapse?

        And then to compare that to the Fire Department. I meean God.. its so damn retarded.

  13. Simply put, slaves being 3/5 of a person was in the Constitution. By their analysis, slavery should not have been abolished because it was Constitutional. The Civil Rights act of 1965 would not have been able to occur because it wasn’t a part of the Constitution. And extending rights to women through things like suffrage, discrimination laws, sexual harassment, all not in the Consitiution so should never have happened..

    • Exactly. When you take these Tea Party ideas to their logical conclusion – it’s not a good thing and virtually no one agrees with it. That’s why I think it’s so important that we engage these ideas in a logical manner. Allow the American people to see what this debate is really about in real world application. Average Americans just do not care at all about idealogical stuff, they care about results. And the results from following the Tea Party ideal to it’s conclusion would be absolutely disastrous for this country.

    • When the Constitution was being debated, the South wanted all their slaves counted in the Congressional allotment numbers.

      The North opposed Slavery and they knew that if the slaves were counted for purposes of representation, that the South would dominate the Congress and the issue would never get addressed.

      The North did not want the slaves counted because , obviously, the Congressmen to come from the South would not regard the Slaves as people and would not be representing them.

      The South absolutely demanded that their slaves count as something.

      So the compromise was worked out under the 3/5th Rule.

      It wasn’t to dehumanize them.. it was so that the political factions who actually wanted to end slavery would be able to do so in the future.

      That compromise and many others were needed in order to get the States to come under Federal Union.

      It was an honorable thing to do given the choices available.

      • And what’s the “honorable” reason women were not allowed to vote?

      • Nothing in Constitution prevented women from voting.

      • VinceP, our 19th amendment gives women the right to vote. It was instated in 1920. I think this indicates that women, in fact, were not allowed to vote before that time.

      • Hi Amy, I was responding to a specific implication, that women couldn’t vote before the Amendment XIX. That implication was wrong. Women could vote in various places.

        His implication was placed onto a discussion about the Constitution, so I responded to it in those terms.

      • I think it’s fair to say that neither side considered or wanted to consider slaves as actual people having any of those high fulitin’ rights, as life, liberty or the persuit of happiness I believe both our groups now espouse. Having them “counted” was merely a way to gain more power by the slave owners over non-slave owners. Both sides of that argument are pretty disgusting. Trying to paint a noble face on them now is not going to work. Getting back to the “original intent” rightly opens one up to that same disgust, unless they nuance a bit more than what I’ve seen so far.

      • I think it’s fair to say that it’s really rather pointless to judge people that lived centuries ago about something that was universally practiced around the world at the time… especially since we’re amongst the first nations (following GB’s lead) to work to eliminate it.

        Not being perfect is not a problem for me. The expectation of perfection is a problem.

      • Nice try. Re non-perfection, don’t hold your breath for an argument, I think I was pretty clear. That was obviously not the point though was it? People who want to go back to that original intent apparently are OK with that non-perfection to the point of obsession; granted, they don’t admit that they want a more racist, sexist interpretation like the good ol’ days, but they don’t really have to if you think about it for a few seconds.

      • This is where I just scratch my head.

        Are you actually arguing that anyone is advocating for the 3/5th Rule today?

        Really?

        I suspect such an agenda is a fabrication of your making.

    • No one is saying the Constitution was or is perfect. The demand is merely that it be observed.

      The criticisms you bring up are interesting. If you take a look at how the 3/5 compromise came about, you’ll find it actually resulted from an effort to end slavery. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the perceived value of black life. It was a way to shoehorn the Constitution into existence, an effort which established the republic which eventually freed the slaves. Emancipation, suffrage, discrimination law, etc, all stemmed from the principles which underlie the Constitution as articulated in the Declaration of Independence. The progressive struggle has since shifted from an effort to assure inalienable rights are universally recognized to an effort to contrive rights which do not exist. These “rights” are actually entitlements, which deprive others of what is rightfully theirs. In this way, it is actually regressive, a return to inequality.

  14. Tea and Coffee seem to have in common a desire for responsible governing from all our civil servants. Defense to potholes we want value for our tax dollars. What happened to live and let live, Art in daily life, tolerance, the original golden rule, lively conversation and joy of participating in a government that works. Rhetoric obscures the issues, now is the time for plain speech and cooperation.

    Pogo….”we have met the enemy and it is us”

  15. This guy seems reasonable but here’s the problem I always run into. I joined a Perot group years ago with the idea of finding common ground, etc. and it was good, we did find a number of issues we felt the same about. But then we started getting people who had problems with Darwin and Global warming, intractable in their positions. Certain issues, like abortion, I get there will be no movement, but this kind of belief in factual misinformation, like birthers – I’m just at a loss on how to react. It caused me to end my affiliation with that group and I think to the disintegration of that group. Perhaps I lack the patience to be a good politician.

    • I don’t think there should be a lot of patience for misinformation.

      There should be patience for different point of views, because I think with a logical argument a better understanding of the world can be gained. But if the basis of one’s understanding is false information then it’s impossible for that person to think in a clear way.

      • That is what the focus of the Coffee Party should be, IMHO.
        The media is not doing a very good job of presenting correct information.
        The specialty these days is appealing to emotions and people will react as predicted.
        We have Tea Party people that are angry, we have those on the left angry because they feel used and not getting what they thought they would get.
        There is the anger by Tea Party folks that are not getting what they want for what is pointed out as extreme behaviors of many kinds, meant to elicit emotional response, muddying the water.
        We should direct our anger in ways that have results other than anger and useless, meaningless emotions that do absolutely nothing. The Republicans want to co-opt the grass roots and Democrats want to keep their big corporate donors, feeling vulnerable. The people do not want politicians representing Wall Street, I think that is the common ground, but factually, the Republicans bring about pattern bail outs.
        There is a common ground. grass roots issue we can agree with.
        Nobody likes to see a jobless economy, based on “pump up the stock market, burst the bubble, then bail out the banks with taxpayer money. Corporatism with Congressional approval. There is the common anger.
        How can we work toward altering the process?
        It seems to me the hostile takeover, mega merger-deregulating ways brought us here. Every time a corporation announced job cuts, the stock price went up. OK, maybe some excesses, but basing a company’s worth on fewer employees doing more leads to the idea of “cheaper labor” in some other country is even better. Now when we have no jobs, we have to borrow more and/or spend less. Economic downturn causes less hiring and more outsourcing. Thus, the appearance (IMO_REAL) of war on workers.
        Apparently Republicans feel empowered by corporate donors and still think it will trickle down. It’s NOT trickling down.
        I think we have common ground(s)there and that is something.
        We have people working toward lower wages, creating lowering of spending and then more borrowing and lending. Now we have reached the limit and we could have regulated the lenders and stopped the loans from being sold as “bad loans”.
        That was free market example of giving too much freedom to cause the economy to fail for all. Then stimulus is demonized, when it probably saved many jobs and short memory that TARP was done in 2008 BEFORE Obama was elected.
        Facts, we have facts and emotions. People have been voting based on emotions and feelings, not how can we change the main thing we all are angry over? Politicians taking money from corporations and saying one thing, doing another.
        I have seen the contradictions. Republican Politicians calling stimulus money terrible, then photo op in your locale receiving federal funds, touting jobs are coming. “Pork”… “earmarks”?
        I thought conservatives were against that and small government was good.
        Then we have campaigners again appealing to the Tea Party/Independents, saying I will do what the “professional politician couldn’t do (the same thing that first one said).
        There is a climate of “constant campaigning” that is causing the problems that we have again and again.
        OK, my views are that government is for the greater good of the country, not the government is for doing capitalistic, profit making ONLY. It is supposed to make paths for business and individuals to have mutual benefit. The working folks buy many things, work hard and keep alive these businesses and families, etc.
        We definitely have some large disagreements, but let’s discuss issues specifically and not say: it’s socialism, it’s bad, it’s unconstitutional.
        I have to think the Tea Party folks might be being used as a “phenomenon” that may be disappointed.
        It appears to me the Tea Party people want to be “scaring” the Republicans, but it seems both parties use their “voting blocs” for getting votes, then reward the “machine”, which is dirty politics, tainted by money and people being left hanging and paying taxes for things they don’t like.
        One thing I’d like to point out:
        Both Left, Right and Center… ALL pay for things they don’t like.
        Drowning the government in the bathtub is self defeating.
        Trim here and there, stop allowing high income to avoid taxes, be fair, do not make conditions that keep people “down”/”in their place”. They say you are one of us “elite/haves”, when you are in reality, being used and paying the bill, doing the dirty work for the “haves”.
        They like to say, you are just jealous and bitter because I have and you don’t, but behind the curtain, they want to be served the cake by you and make you say thank you, that is such a sweet cake. Tax cuts for all, but limited to incomes below (X). Write off yachts and multiple homes. Just remember that these people are paying less taxes by percentage than you are, in many cases. Just because they are wealthy, what did they do to deserve to live off our backs?
        This past election overwhelmingly voted for things like Health Care Reform, let’s stop pretending we did not want it. We are facing huge issues and the people that say they don’t like health care on the poll, are the ones that want single payer, or they are believing untruth being spread by media that is being bought by corporations. Journalism is hard to find, people should be worried about these things, but instead they scream socialism.
        We are a proud people, we like to think this is all fair and good.
        I am a lefty that thinks we have to reign in spending, collecting revenue for the necessary things.

    • The problem is one man’s “facts” are another man’s “misinformation.” For instance, the issue of anthropogenic global warming is highly contentious. When scientists produce “facts” which are based on theoretical projections, it is tough to take them as gospel, particularly when other scientists are able to produce actual data based on actual measurement which contradicts the assumptions upon which those projections are based. I refer to the work of Dr. Richard Lindzen from MIT, and his recent paper regarding the direct relationship between global temperature and the amount of radiation escaping into space. I agree intractability is foolhardy. But that goes both ways.

  16. If everything as stated in Mr. Hudson letter was true I might could be a member of the Tea Party. The truth however is however that the Tea Party never wanted “healthy conversation”. From the very beginning (when it was in essences created by Fox News) it’s main strategy was to shout down everyone else and not let them speak. Let’s don’t forget that this is the group that would fill up “town hall” meeting by members of congress and just start shouting the same “canned” statements and carrying signs handed to them by lobbyist and people in the Rep party.

    Also when you read where there funding is coming from and hear about their expensive conferences you can clearly see this isn’t a movement “of the people”.

    • I agree, David. What seems salient about the TP is that they want to outscream an election, which those with their point of view did not win. If there are some who want to have a calm conversation, I’m willing to have it: but we do have representative democracy and the people voted – for health care reform, for a change in foreign policy, for an end to the Iraq War, etc. Many of those who are most vocal in the TP act as though they never had a chance to speak, but as others have said, where were they during the prior 8 years when the same constitutional principles they claim to want to protect, were being violated with impunity? And, when it comes to health care reform, most speak as though we haven’t tried to provide health insurance to people via the private sector and were unwilling to try it.

    • The truth however is however that the Tea Party never wanted “healthy conversation”. David, where did you get your ‘facts’?

      I am not a member of the Republican, Libertarian, or Constitution Party. And I do not watch Fox News.

      You generalize me…by my ‘color’ (membership in the Tea Party. Are you for Civil Rights?

      If so, than stop generalizing and discriminating based on your philosophical & ideological bias.

    • You’re entitled to your impression, David. I’m not going to talk you off it. It’s no different than folks on my side who are reacting to the Coffee Party with identical sentiments. “This is Soros!” “This is Organizing for America!” etc. At the end of the day, none of that matters. It’s ad hominem nonsense. Even under your worst conspiratorial scenario, the arguments are either valid or invalid, truthful or false. Quibbling over source is tilting at windmills.

  17. I think the truth is – if you take the Tea Party idea to it’s inevitable conclusion most Americans are strongly against it. If it’s all conceptual like “follow the constitution” then people think that sounds good, but when it comes to to actual real life policy (Almost no one is on board with getting rid of Social Security & Medicare in actuality) people don’t like the sound of it so much.

    The Republican party is most responsible for growing huge deficits in this country. It was Ronald Reagan who first brought huge deficit spending (as Dick Cheney said “Ronald Reagan proved deficits don’t matter) and it was George W. Bush who turned Bill Clinton’s surplus into a 1.2 trillion deficit (this is what Obama inherited for fiscal year 2009 – there was already a 1.2 trillion deficit on the books when he became President, it’s a huge lie to say he tripled the deficit – you can only claim that if you somehow blame Obama for the $700 bailout that happened during the Bush admin!)

    The reason the Republican party brings huge deficits is because they recklessly cut taxes for the rich (see George W. Bush’s tax cuts) without making any significant cuts to major government programs (most specifically Medicare & Social Security.) You really can’t have it all. You can’t have tax cuts for the rich and Medicare & Social Security!

    So this is the rational real world choice for Americans, what do you want more: Social Security & Medicare or to keep those tax cuts for the rich? You can’t have ‘em both. It’s the false idea (from the Republicans) that you can that has lead to the huge deficits of today.

    I want to ask members of the Tea Party – how do you guys think we should go about balancing the budget? Because I agree with you, we should balance the budget – I think we should raise taxes on the rich to do so. What do you think we should do? If you think we should cut Social Security & Medicare – OK. Tell the American people that. We’ll see whose side they are on :)

    • If good governance is only about the survivability of Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid than We have a serious misunderstanding of the purpose of the Federal Government.

      Was the Federal Government visualized and created to take care of our personal & individual needs?

      • To some extent…yes, it was.

    • Entitlements have to end. I am willing to make that case, whether Republicans are or not. I agree you can’t cut taxes and keep spending. You assume the public at large will not be willing to let go of their goodies. That may be true. My reaction is two-fold. First, it doesn’t matter. No one has the right to compel another to provide for them. As the old cliche goes, “Your right to swing your fist ends at the other man’s nose.” Put another way, your right to spend ends at the other man’s pocket. Whether entitlements should continue is not a question of constituent will. It’s a moral question. It’s a matter of right and wrong. It’s also a legal question. We surely agree there have been illegitimate laws in the past. Slavery, suffrage, and discrimination have all been evoked above. These were enabled by laws which violated the superior mandates articulated in the founding documents. It is the same with Social Security and Medicare. Secondly, folks need to realize their goodies are going to end regardless. You can’t tax your way to prosperity. Eventually, you run out of rich people to fleece. These liabilities simply cannot be funded, and therefore cannot continue to exist. On a long enough timeline, the argument won’t need to be made. It will simply come to fruition.

      • That language is right out of the objectivist playbook. You may as well just call Social Security recipients “parasites”. Social Security and Medicare can be funded if we as a nation refocus our priorities. I never hear Tea Party movement members, who are supposed to be up in arms about bloated government entitlements, talk about what ends up being a $trillion defense budget. We spend 7x more on defense than China. The National Security State is robbing this nation of its resources in order to maintain the standard of living for the Military Industrial Complex. We’ve spent another $trilion on a “war” against a group of approximately 5,000 religiously fanatic criminals. But, of course, that part of the federal budget is sacrosanct.

        I know you guys hate it, but the fact is this is a representative federal democracy, not a plutocracy. Raise the contribution cap on SS earnings and cut the defense budget by a third and you’ll find the money to keep those programs solvent and still manage to maintain a strong national defense. The US Constitution empowers the Congress to make legislation, so the notion that income taxes are unconstitutional is ridiculous.

      • I love reading this crap. That you can type all of that and then purport that specific individuals actually hold those views that you created.

        Do you really expect anyone to respond to you when you go off into outer space? Do you see what you’re doing?

        This irrationality drives me nuts.

      • Well Vince, since you mentioned it, you have managed to superimpose your persona all over this forum in a manner that can be characterized as frothing at the mouth irrationalism. If you do not want to deal with policy differences in a rational way, that is your business.

      • Actually, the United States has spent a combined 7 Trillion Dollars on all wars since the Revolutionary War.

        Wait, I forgot to mention one other war. It was declared (unconstitutionally) on January 20, 1964. It has cost the United states nearly 16 Trillion Dollars since then. And this war is not a part of the defense budget. Any idea? Let us know when you find out.

        Actually, ‘this is a representative federal democracy’ is incorrect. We are a representative republic. Please check the United States Constitution (Article 4. Section 4).

        Actually, Amendment 16 (direct/income tax) fundamentally changed the constitution. Originally, the states (indirectly individuals) were taxed by the Federal Government. It WAS a safeguard (limited) against giving the Federal Government too much (unlimited) power. This is an area we need much debate and discussion.

  18. Mr. Hudson,

    I applaud you for being one of the first to extend the olive branch and begin a conversation. This is what we all need.

    As I understand it (and from what I’ve seen), there are different factions in the Tea Party that have somewhat different ideologies. And this may be where some of the points you makes about obstructionism might stem from.

    Although I don’t completely agree with all of your points and don’t expect we will see eye to eye on everything, this is a great step toward communicating with each other. You are one I would love to have a conversation with. I really do like the opening salvo. Thank you, Sir.

  19. I appreciate the effort of this gentleman. But I must point out three issues I have with his position. First, if he asserts that the Tea Party is a ‘diverse’ group of people with differing opinions, then he must concede that most if not all of the conceptions we have of their ‘party’ are accurate. We are not in need of ‘correction’ in order to have dialogue.
    Secondly, a main purpose of this movement is to engage in civil discourse. This does not mean we need to agree with/find common ground, etc with the Tea Party in order to have a dialogue. THAT is the purpose, not finding a common goal of purpose.
    Finally, if matters of constitutionality were as quaintly easy to define as he would like others to believe, then the SCOTUS, constitutional law, and the legal system on the whole would be of only passing relevance to our lives. But they are NOT. His opinions of what is constitutional are just that. Opinions. And as such, we are all entitled to form our own opinions on this issue. Frankly I don’t need a lecture in constitutional law in order to have discourse or be informed.

  20. I really think it’s a matter of theoretical thinking vs real world thinking. You can theoretically think that the constitution was perfect at it’s creation but in reality that’s obviously not true. If you roll back all of the progress of the last 200+ years you are left with laws that virtually no modern American would be OK with (including almost all of the Tea Party people if they really thought about it.)

    The 18th century was a far different time than the 21st century. In the 21st century we do not believe black people should be slaves (or that they are 3/5th of a person!) or that women should not have the right to vote.

    Most Americans strongly support federal government programs such as Medicare & Social Security and they also strongly support laws of basic civil rights and government regulations. As President Obama said (I’m paraphrasing here) “we could make meat less expensive by getting rid of meat inspections…” Yes we could. But do any of us want to eat meat that hasn’t undergone such inspections? How many people would have to die of bad meat before there would be a reaction against such an idea?

    We’ve gotten to this place today because people don’t really like the no government sort of idea of the Tea Party in actuality. It’s the sort of thing that sounds nice in a theoretical way but when you apply to reality it’s a complete disaster.

  21. I also welcome the idea of open discourse though i think it would be difficult since there are so many passionate feelings about these subjects. On the issue of Health care reform, I am also curious how that would be unconstitutional.

    My Big question is, why are so many people against the universal model when it works (for the most part, I know there are negatives to it as well) so well in so many other countries and even in Hawaii?

    On a personal note after paying our mortgage our next largest expense is paying to insure myself and my son, because my husbands company doesn’t offer it to families. When I was working it was offered through my company but was so much more expensive we couldn’t afford it and had to stick with what we had. It’s pretty good coverage, Medical+Dental, however it didn’t even cover all of my sons “well baby” visits.

    In this country, in this day and age things should be better. I’m for a model of universal health care myself having experienced it when living in Canada. I think we can look at other countries models and see where they falter and build our model so that those weaknesses won’t effect our system.

    Health care “Of the people, by the people and for the people”, sounds like a good idea to me.

  22. This is a thoughtful letter and I believe an honest one. It should be accepted completely, within the spirit that I believe it was intended.

    Now.

    I thank God we live in a country where have the freedom to discuss these matters without fear of recrimination. That’s in the Constitution. However, I do not support a government that belongs to private interests, or a “free market” philosophy.

    We are Americans, and we are better than that.

    Government only “obstructs” progress when we, the people, allow it to do so. I am the government. And the government is me. I would stand up and make my voice heard by every elected official who is accountable to me. My ancestors who fought for this country, and my young relatives who follow me, would expect nothing less.

  23. I have but two things to address. “The Tea Party believes progress can only derive from people, and too much government obstructs it.” What is the national government but a consortium of people? I can hardly read anything these days without seeing the words “government” and “people” used as if they were two different materials, when in fact they can be used interchangeably. Government is not some entity existing outside the realm of the sentient. Secondly, I wanted to comment on the words of Senator Lamar Alexander from Tennessee. He has stated “It is arrogant to imagine that 100 senators are wise enough to reform comprehensively a health care system that constitutes 17 percent of the world’s largest economy and affects 300 million Americans of disparate backgrounds and circumstances.” Did Mr. Alexander forget that the founding fathers numbered significantly less than 100, but their wisdom is never questioned?

  24. You sound reasonable, but then there are emails like this originating from teaparty.org.

    Chicago-Boss Obama and Democrats’ Unprecedented Attack against American People

    For the first time since the loyalists to King George III and the British army moved against the American colonists and patriots, the US government is moving en masse to both stop and silence any opposition from the American people to Obama and any and all of his and his Marxist-Democrats.

    As long as any of the Marxist-Democrat Party members are in power, their abuses of said power will continue to escalate. This is what despots do. When asked at the Obama-Summit if the Democrat leadership was even listening to the American people, the response was either silence or a quick change of the subject.

    Not since the first American Revolution War officially began in 1775 has the oppression against We-the-People from an opposition government been so intense and so relentless. Now, for the first time in our history, the majority leadership within the US Government is moving against its own people with increasing alacrity, force and determination. They have told us and continue to shout to us in myriad ways that they will refuse to listen to anything we say unless it is to thank them (our new “masters”) for placing us into bondage and slavery.

    Despite increasingly overwhelming opposition from the American people to Obama’s and the Democrats’ Orwellian plans for us, they are moving even faster and harder to oppress us and shut us up. This is how tyrannies are formed, folks. And we are now firmly smack-dab-in-the-middle of our own.

    • Dayam. I’d be interested to hear someone Tea Party affiliated defend those statements. That’s pretty far out.

      • Exactly. Some Tea Party people like to make claims about their group that are just… not borne out by the reality of the situation. There is a lot of really ignorant really hateful stuff coming from the Tea Party and if folks don’t disown that stuff, it’s hard to take them seriously.

      • Democrats aren’t “We, the People…” too? And according to Glenn Beck, progressivism is a disease. Honestly, I don’t know how to negotiate with people who hold such hostile and extreme views.

    • Is that for real?

      Since I actually listen to what the Obama-lead government has to say (as opposed to media interpretations of it) I’m hard pressed to find anything tyrannical coming out of the White House. In previous years, however, I felt oppressed by our government for the first time, namely by the Patriot Act. I’m hard pressed to see how universal healthcare enslaves me, while being too sick to work through not being able to afford said healthcare is freeing? I see a President working hard to push through the adjustments to goverment that are the reason I voted for him in the first place, i.e. carrying out the will of me, the people!

      In order to obtain true “progress”, ultimately all sides have to agree to disagree. Everything comes down to ideologies, and there is a rapidly growing base of empirical evidence to show it. The latest I’ve come across: The Cultural Cognition Project at Yale Law School has an informative study available for download on the topic of why people seemingly disregard scientific evidence when it comes to scientifically and culturally significant topics of political debate, such as climate change and gun possession. (I encourage everyone to Google it!)

      • I’ve never seen a real world example of “tyranny” from the Obama admin from the Tea Party/Republican crowd. Not one real world example. It’s all vague stuff about “socialism” … but with no real examples. It’s so sad to me how easily people are manipulated without any factual basis in reality.

        I would love for any Tea Party member to give one real world example of how Obama is ‘taking the country away’ from them. I’m talking about an actual policy. A policy that wasn’t already in place with previous Presidents. Just one.

        There’s no there, there. When you look under the covers, there’s just no substance to it.

    • I guess as Walter indicated, it’s a very diverse group indeed.

  25. This letter is a start, and a civil discussion is needed to keep our government moving in the right direction. However, this letter talks about progressive movements, yet the loudest cries from the Tea party are against progressivism. The letter states government has to function within the constraints of the constitution, yet so many people in the Tea party support domestic spying for our protection which is illegal according to the constitution. Mr Hudson talks about the Tea party remaining neutral, yet they choose inflammatory spokespeople like Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity to speak on their behalf.

    Perhaps Mr hudson could clarify my misconception of the Tea Party. It seems to me the Tea Party members had no problem paying their taxes when their government spent trillions of dollars destroying 2 other countries, lost millions their tax money simply by not keeping track of it, and bail out for profit companies incapable of managing their own bottom line, but when the government started to spend money on our country, to rebuild failing infrastructure, to give people the hand up to stay healthy instead of relying on emergency services, and to provide funding for companies that want to create more jobs that is when they decided they should stop paying for the common good.

  26. This appears to be an excellent start and I appreciate the time Mr. Hudson took to write his letter. I however remain skeptical – when I think of the Tea Party, I think of all the opportunities lost because it was the policy of the group to obstruct and divert discussion on Health Care Reform through the most inappropriate behavior I’ve ever seen. ‘Rude’ doesn’t even come close to describing the shouting, name calling, and fully obstructionist behaviors I watched. The behavior had two purposes: to get time on TV and to block any discourse that might make Reform a viable answer to a terrible situation that costs lives. And the Tea Party approved it and flaunted it.
    So, I will say this much at this point: If Mr. Hudson’s olive branch is a sign of new thinking in the Tea Party, then I welcome it. I must however use the cliche: I’ll believe it when I see it. In the meantime, I have joined and will support the Coffee Party.

  27. A big difference I see in the two groups is that tea partiers don’t acknowledge that the government is made up of a bunch of people. They seem to morph it into some big monster that needs to be attacked. This fundamental misunderstanding of government is going to make it difficult to have a conversation.

  28. Another point I want to make: I believe the argument of “small government vs. big government” is missing the point. What we should be debating is how to have the most effective government.

    I think it when it comes to actually being applied to real world scenarios the vast majority of Americans have no real interest in an extremely small federal government. People like Social Security. People like Medicare.

    I think progressives should welcome an election that comes down to “How do we best balance the budget?” With the answer “roll back the tax cuts on the rich” from progressives and the answer “cut Medicare & Social Security” from the tea party/Republicans.

    I have absolutely no doubt who would win such an election. And that is what all of this really comes down to in a real world scenario.

    Folks can talk about following the constitution and “small government” as theoretical ideas – but when it comes to actual real world policy – it doesn’t really lead anywhere constructive.

  29. I’m a Coffee Party member, and yes we have people on the site taking a negative response to this olive branch, and we also have members expressing thanks at Mr. Hudson’s message. Just like the response from the TP members. There are a lot of ruffled feathers on both sides.

    Speaking for myself, I’d like to thank Mr. Hudson for taking the time to respond, for a realistic and rational approach, and for the acknowledgement that this “side of the movement” has legitimacy. You are right that we won’t come to concensus on some issues, and also correct that this conversation should be towards understanding. Civility somehow naturally ensues, and that is sorely lacking in the current state.

  30. I believe we do not owe an explanation or olive branch to teabaggers. We do not need their advice or noses in our business.Why do they think we need their help and advice?. Their messages are hateful, hurtful and at times violent. I do not believe for one minute that they are looking for friendship. They want to know how much of a threat we are to their conservative movement. Don’t be fooled. Why cant we just do this???/ Please leave them out of it for now. Let’s get established. We need to focus on our own issues and concerns. We do not need to find a common interest to share with the Tea Party. We need to discuss and establish our own common interests. as a movement.

    • You obviously have no idea what the coffee party is about. Do not speak for us until you realize what you have joined.

      • So You, Mark, are the Coffee Party and what it is all about? Or is it a movement of many people, just starting and yet to be totally defined? Seems to me the overwhelming number of people on here are here to counter the Tea Party.

    • As I understand, our movement is based on civility and open discourse. Please don’t call them “teabaggers;” it’s rude. You used it rather casually, so perhaps you didn’t realize. If you look it up on urbandictionary.com, you’ll see why it crosses the line into offensive territory.

      • Excuse me, Amy, but they are the ones who chose the name of their party, and have to live with its implications. They are called teabaggers by the media and even by some who claim to belong to the Tea Party. They use all kinds of unkind slurs and insults, and should expect to get as well as they receive.

      • Shannon,

        Please enumerate the ‘unkind slurs and insults’ used by the ‘teabaggers’.

    • Debra,

      Please enumerate the ‘hateful, hurtful, and at times violent’ messages of the Tea Party Movement.

  31. Here is my problem with all so called “small government” politicians. They complain about big government, but won’t tell us precisely what programs they intend to eliminate. They do this because they don’t want to alienate any constituency that benefits from the programs. Until I see a politician campaigning on a platform to eliminate agriculture subsidies, or the Children’s Health Insurance Program, or the Centers for Disease Control, etc. I will believe they are just spouting vacuous nonsense.

    • Right on. “Small government” and “follow the constitution” rhetoric only sounds good to people in the abstract and the Republicans know that. When they talk about the reality of it, very few people are on board.

      Present the American people with a choice of rolling back the tax cuts for the rich or getting rid of Medicare and I don’t think it would be a particularly close vote! But that’s what it comes down to. You cannot balance the budget without either rolling back the tax cuts for the rich or substantially cutting programs such as Medicare.

      What’s most rich about this is that the Republicans got mileage with the whole “Keep your hands off my Medicare” thing but of course it’s the Republican/Tea Party approach that would cut Medicare.

      • It is very generous of those over-taxed middle class Americans to defend GWB’s redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy.

  32. While I’d like to thank Mr. Hudson for the olive branch, I simply can’t. Part of the problem inherent in the Tea Party movement at its very core is the fact that any political motion with which the movement disagrees is a potential target for being spuriously labeled as unconstitutional, as Mr. Hudson himself has done here. No rational discourse can come forth when one side of an issue is willing to vilify their opponents the way the Tea Party has done. Granted, there’s a lot of vitriol directed at the Tea Party movement, but when that movement talks about needing to take the country “back” from those of us that believe in a certain form of progress, can you really blame us? The Tea Party movement is in and of itself a divisive force whose only claim to be “uniting” is akin to Pax Romana. My apologies, but I cannot find any common ground on which to stand with a movement that not only vilifies and rebukes the sort of change that can only come about by rejecting the concept of social stagnation, but that accepts and supports groups that spread thinly-veiled racist agendas (like the 1776 – teaparty.org – group cited above, read their website if you don’t believe me) and belies the claim that the TPM as a whole is non-partisan by directly supporting a specific party (which party is left as an exercise for the reader).

  33. I want to know who the Tea Party thinks took possession of the USA. It is ours – all of us – whether Democratic, Republican, white, black, Asian, Hispanic, Catholic, Muslim, atheist, scientist, factory worker, plumber, teacher, man, woman, or child.

    So, what does it mean that you want to take your country back? Do you realize you do not speak for the majority of Americans?

    Based on the signs you carry and the silly “Marxist Communist muslim Hitler, etc” rhetoric, it all seems to boil down to the fact that there’s a black man in the White House, and you can’t stand it. And he’s uppity, as if he thinks he’s the duly elected POTUS or something!

    • Yeah, he only won the election by nearly 10 million votes.

  34. Where do I find out about the Los Angeles Coffee Party will be held or any meetings?

    • Are you on Facebook? You should be able to find the “Join the Coffee Party Movement in California/LA” page. Scrolling through the comments will probably get you there–I’m not sure myself, since I’m only on the main page and the PA page. Otherwise, http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/ is likely your best shot.

  35. Steps need to be taken immediately to rein in those who are posting personal attacks, even those made toward Tea Partiers. Negative commentary about the Tea Party as a whole, or negative commentary on Tea Party positions is part of healthy debate, but negative personal attacks and namecalling should be immediately dealt with if the CP intends to live up to its mantle and core values of civility.

    Even if Tea Party members or coordinators INSTIGATE negative personal attacks and namecalling, the CP as a whole needs to take THE HIGH ROAD.
    This will cast us in the better light in every way.
    Coffee Party members MUST take special pains to portray themselves as being on a much higher level or risk being lumped together as Tweedle Dee to the Tweedle Dum.
    And we don’t really want that, do we?

    • No, we don’t. Though from what I’ve read so far, we’ve on the whole been rather civil, haven’t we? Part of that, of course, is credited to Mr. Hudson for his polite letter.

    • You start reining in what people are saying and you will go nowhere. People are joining the Coffee Party because they see the Republicans and the Tea Partiers blocking desperately needed change and screaming for violent revolt. If you insist on being namby pamby and politiaclly correct and not stepping on any toes, you are doomed from the start.

  36. I also cordially invite Coffee Party members to take a serious look at
    CAPITOL HILL BLUE’s “READER RANT” forum.
    You’re going to find that it’s a very health forum for debate and a substantial bulwark of healthy progressive thought.
    And…it’s a model of civility!
    http://readerrant.capitolhillblue.com

  37. There is no compromise between the first principles of rightwing populism and leftwing populism.

    This might come as a surprise to you, but I have no philosophical investment in the federal government being bloated to its maximum possible girth. I don’t care how big the government is, so long as it is big enough to protect us from the biggest corporations, the richest bamboozler, and is well-funded enough to allow those abandoned by the labor and housing markets to not die of worms in the street.

    Leftwing populism fundamentally understands that there are avoidable systemic causes to the despair of poverty. Rightwing populism preaches the lie that personal responsibility is the only cause of failure in life. I will never ally with a movement that preaches that poison. That is a problem of first principles. A problem that is irreconcilable.

    Rightwing populism is a movement defined by profound suspicion of the Federal government (but not the states for some reason, despite the fact that the state governments are dominated to a far larger extent by theocrats and other ingoramuses). I don’t see the same skepticism toward corporations, financial lords, etc. (i.e. private sources of overwhelming coercive power). Rightwing populism heroizes John Galt, no matter what that Noble Entrepreneur does for a living. The most destructive polluters, the most destructive swindlers, the most immoral profiteers; they are all John Galt to rightwing populists. That is a problem of first principles. A problem that is irreconcilable.

    Also, when I hear conservatives talking about “states’ rights,” “local sovereignty,” etc… I recognize those same concepts as the legally and politically “legitimate” weapons of the segregationist movement. Similarly, I recognize the anti-tax movement as little more than a violent, resentful reaction by racist whites to urban blacks getting welfare checks. That murderer who flew his plane into the Austin IRS building, I wonder how many black friends he had. I bet not many.

    I have lived in the small town South. I know who the first citizens of places like Jena, LA are. And I know that if the federal government was small enough to drown in a bathtub, as you so strenuously yearn for, those ignorant predators who think in circles of biblical literalism and racial conspiracies will make their worlds unsafe for minorities of every stripe.

    Mere denials don’t cut it. The racism is actual and apparent, and your denial are false and substanceless. As a black guy, you can hold yourself out as evidence of “modern” conservatism’s colorblindness, but it is you, and not me, who misunderstands. You are part of the neo-segregationist movement. Race is a fundamental, yet constantly denied, element of rightwing populism. Consider the primary targets of their hate: Muslim terrorists, Latin American immigrants, entitlement programs, diversity programs, political correctness, affirmative action. Consider also their obsessions with Obama’s African or Indonesian birth, their obsession with Obama’s Muslim faith, their fixation on “Reverse Discrimination,” and the opportunistic fixation on black-on-white violence by rightwing media. Rightwing populism does not even bother to encode their preferences for whiteness, christianity and nativism, but somehow successfully avoids the label of racism by feeble superficial denials. And how can that come as a surprise when you consider that the roots of the current rightwing populist movement are in Massive Resistance? There is a reason so many of your colleagues in the teabagging movement are white: it’s because if it were any other way, they wouldn’t have joined.

    I appreciate you playing Good Cop to the rest of rightwing populism’s Bad Cop, but you are deluded. The only compromises that are ever made in right-left coalitions are those made by the left. The left is not interested in bargaining with the right, because the right never bargains in good faith.

    Thanks anyway, Mr. Hudson. I wish you and your movement the worst of luck.

    • I have to agree with you, but I try to discuss issues with those in the tea party.
      Trying to be positive, however feeling this person is an anomaly or feeling like joining a group of independents, perhaps overlooking the many signs we find objectionable.
      This is Pres. Obama’s trouble, trying to have a conversation, allowing the opposition a voice, but getting stabbed in the back. That is my worry, trying to have a conversation, offering a hand, but having it bitten.

      • Obama gives the appearance of “having a conversation” but when things get down to their basics what does he often say… “I won” or “The election is over”

        I cant recall hearing a President ever be so divisive in my life. And its not just that.. its giving people the middle finger, constantly blaming his predecessors for everything, telling his opponents to shut up, his constant use of false dichotomy and his straw men.

        And in any case.. it’s irreverent for Congressmen to discuss anything with him. Congress is Congress. Congress is not the White House. And tis Congress under Pelosi and Reid have locked down the minority pretty tight.

        Obama could be as engaging as he wants.. its isn’t going to result in Pelosi incorporating whatever into the bills.

        So it’s an easy gesture for Obama. Pretend to be all ears , secure in the knowledge that Pelosi is controlling the language.

        It’s all rather cynical and rather apparent too.. if one just sees.

        He writes in his book that he figured out how to keep people from being agitated by him or how he could seem to be level-headed or whatnot when I guess he wasn’t really being that way….

        Axlerod is a manipulator and he (Obama) is a manipulator. He has taken the worst of this town (Chicago’s) corruption and planted it right in the town that needs it the least.

      • Vince, he did win. And he has every right to try to get done the things that those who elected him want him to get done.

        You only see him as being divisive because he’s trying to do things you don’t agree with.

      • You removed the context of why I said those things… your response does not really address what I was saying.

        The point was to address Sandy’s notion that he has been

        “trying to have a conversation”

        ” allowing the opposition a voice” (wow. thank you Mr Obama)

        “offering a hand”

        And I disputed that with the points I brought up. That was the reason I brought those things up. What you responded to was out of context.

        The persona that Obama ran as… the thing that had earned him his cult of personality , was that he was going to be a different type of politician.

        That’s a standard he put on himself. It was one he has no ability to live up to. None of us should pretend that he is that person.

      • Vince – he is trying, while knowing that the GOP’s tactic is delay, stall, chip away, all the while whispering – actually shouting – exaggerations, misrepresentations, and outright lies. GW didn’t have to act like President Obama and try to have a consensus, because when he had an overwhelming majority in Congress, they ignored the Left, claiming they had won and had the right to do what they would. They rammed through whatever they wanted, while President Bush used signing statements and executive orders to destroy as much of the progress the left had made over the past 50 years as possible. They never asked the other side to work with them, they never compromised, and if and when they get back in power they will do it the same way again. The GOP is the party of the corporations and the ultra-rich stockholders of the corporations and want NO PROGRESSIVE CHANGE AT ALL.

  38. Mr. Hudson,

    When you say “there are fundamental principles underlying the Tea Party movement which cannot be compromised”, you draw a line in the sand where little progress can be made on any issue.

    You enumerate your “no compromise” positions as “fiscal responsibility, free markets, [and constitutionally] limited government”.

    “Fiscal Responsibility” a very open-ended term. While I know that it has a specific meaning to those in your choir, being fiscally responsible can mean a lot of things to different people. Personally, I was aghast at the fiscal irresponsibility of the Bush administration, but I recognize that what is happening in the Obama administration is their (sometimes misguided) effort to deal with the effects of the previous administrations malfeasance.

    “Free Markets” is another preaching-to-the-choir kind of dog whistle that means a specific thing to your particular choir. Many of us believe that the deregulation of markets is largely responsible for the fiscally irresponsible position we find ourselves in today. What we need are sane, fiscally responsible and well-thought-out regulations for our markets, not a completely free system where there are no check and balances, oversight or consequences for abuse.

    “Limited Government” sounds great to me. I would like the Government to be as small and efficient as possible, and there is certainly a lot of room for improvement in those areas. Others, in the comments above have made valid points that I won’t rehash.

    The other statement I take issue with is your “The Coffee Party seems to think it comes from government. The Tea Party believes progress can only derive from people, and too much government obstructs it.”

    Again, others have made valid points above, but it should be restated that our Government is “us”. We elected them, and we should certainly replace them when they are not responsible to our needs.

    But despite your statement, Government is certainly part of the solution – a belief that is proven by the Tea Party getting involved in elections, campaigns and the political process. Let’s be honest with one another.

    But here is my main point, and if you read nothing else, I hope you’ll read this:

    Compromise, as a principle, is one of our country’s most basic values, originating with the Founders, enshrined in the Constitution and proven by our way of life.

    The founders compromised on basically everything. From our bicameral legislature, to our court system, to our religious freedoms, to our military structure, to our executive powers – everything.

    NO ONE got everything they wanted. NO ONE was left completely out in the cold.

    We MUST be willing to compromise or there is really no sense in trying.

    • Good post Patrick. To add to what you said:

      And that’s a fundamental reason why the Federal Govt was designed to be limited.

      So that policies desired by one faction would not be felt to be imposed on others unfairly, with nowhere to escape from them.

      And the obvious principle that the Government closer to you is easier for you to influence

      The General Welfare clause meant to be in contradiction to the Specific Welfare. It meant General in a very abstract General , Universal way. Not in a general way applied to individuals.

      General Welfare did not related to “welfare” as we know it today.

      It meant that when the Federal Govt did anything. it was to be done in a manner that was universal , as much as possible.

      Constrained by the enumerated powers.

  39. IMO, the prevailing difference between the CP and the TPers I have spoken with, is that although we both have passionate beliefs about our nation and government, we respond to and express these beliefs differently. We both feel our dedication in our gut. It appears to me that with most TPers with whom I have spoken, opinions rise directly from the gut to the mouth, and out. The CP movement opts to feel it in our gut, route it through our brain for confirmation, and then it heads to the mouth. Very big difference!

    • maybe that’s true or maybe it isn’t, but what do you think we’re going to gain by saying “we’re smart, you aren’t”.

      Juheeesus, dude. Condescend much ?

      • I’m not a “dude”. I am a 68 year old grandmother who’s been around a bit. From what I have seen and read, the Tea Parties rise out of anger and rage. When one is angry, one tends not to think before expressing it. No condescension — just my experience, dude.

      • Marti,

        Generalizing all TPers is a contradiction to your values. How do you know if I am using my brain or not – oh you can tell because I am a member of the Tea Party movement…I see. He must be a criminal because he’s black?

  40. So Walter Scott Hudson, if the election is held tomorrow would you vote Left or Right?

  41. I see a few people have turned this into “Complain about everything I cant stand about faction x”.. it’s all really besides the point because whatever the “TeaParty” is (and I say it really doesn’t have a universal definition (yet)) it is primarily a reaction to the horror that we find the Fed Govt’s budget to be in.

    The Federal Budget is the Prime Concern and the predominate concern.

    I live in Chicago, so I cant speak for other conservatives but I viewed the GOP as a sellout since the late 90s and I was never happy with them and the post 9/11 spending was atrocious.

    Its my sense that many other people felt that way as well and mixed in there is the realization that we’re facing an existential battle with revivalist Islam that we (America) had failed to perceive developing over the past few decades.

    In 2006 , the GOP base was fed up with the GOP Washington BS and the base abandoned the party. Many people want to know where the protests were then… that’s where they were.

    No one had any idea what was to happen in 2008 regarding the destruction of the economic system.

    But then that happens. We find out there’s trillions of bad mortgages, spread all over the world. That due to 30 years of government policy and corruption , the mortgage industry morphed into a disaster.

    Then idiot Paulsen comes up with TARP and now suddenly the Govt wants to assume the losses that should have destroyed whatever financial institutions deserved to be destroyed.

    We all call Congress and demand they REJECT TARP. But Washington is under the spell of the “Experts”. The “Experts” say we have to borrow close to a trillion and buy mortgages all over the country.. but then that ended up turning into bank shares.

    Then the Auto Companies need help. Tough Luck.. the taxpayer is out of funds. GM and Chrysler should go belly up if they cant run their business.

    And what does idiot Bush do? Gives them TARP money.

    Whatever abuses the Fed Govt have done in the past (Social Security).. this is now clearly going over the line.

    Well thankfully Bush’s term is nearly over and we can get some new blood … and he’s claiming to want to end all of this bailout out of control spending nonsense.

    (Not that I believed Obama’s BS for a second. I’m from Chicago. This guy was a fraud from the minute I saw him)

    The Dems get in office and what they do ? Instant Trillion Dollar bills?

    What?! Didn’t they just spend the past decade complaining ab0out spending?

    And the money is going to thier political supporters… it’s a years-long pent-up pay off.

    And then the Omnibus bill.. and the intention of Cap and Trade.

    Well when Rick Santelli made his rant… he resonated . It resonated because the new powers that be are gunning to bankrupt this country faster than the old powers that be.

    The powers that be have destroyed the wealth of this country.

    That is what motivates money of us. This country is half-hanging off a cliff. It’s an emergency.

    And the Democrats want to indulge in new trillion dollar entitlement programs?

    So no.. that can’t stand. It’s insane. And it must be stopped now.

    That is the thought and the tempo of how many people think.

    I dont speak for anyone but myself however.

    • When you say, “Democrats want to indulge in new trillion dollar entitlement programs” you fail to acknowledge the alternative (which, by your silence I can only assume you espouse) i.e., don’t mess with a system that costs you more than ever, gives you less than ever, plans to do more of the same while paying their execs millions in bonuses for bilking us and is rapidly running us off a financial cliff. 17% of GDP and growing is not a reason to be afraid to reform the system, it IS the reason to reform it.

      Many poeple went for the “No Government Takeover!” argument back in 1993. We “decided” to let the market correct itself, we decided against a “government takeover”. What did the free market do to thank us? Back then I paid ~10% the health insurance rates I now pay and my copays were less than 1/8 the size of what I pay now, and the system will soon exceed any sustainable portion of the GDP. That is the alternative you failed to mention, and I fear it is what the astroturf portion of the TP is really all about; the trillions of dollars the Insurance industry will miss out on if true reform is allowed to occur.

      One can complain about anything, the rubber only meets the road when you consider the real alternatives. Did I get it wrong? Is there some realistic alternative the TPs have in mind? I don’t much like paying my mortgage (it’s too expensive!), but I like sleeping on the street even less.

      Given an honest set of options, I do feel that we will make a good choice.

  42. Vince, thanks for telling your story. The difference is, I don’t see the “powers” being the government. In fact, I see the powers who are “destroying this country” to be from outside the government – Wall Street, having accomplished getting regulations that worked for decades overturned; defense contractors influencing how and where we go to war, etc. Destruction resulted. I voted for President Obama in order to go in a completely different direction, and it was because I wanted health care reform – if possible, single-payer! – and I wanted a country where we worked together to solve problems (including the problems of those who wind up in trouble, such as mortgage foreclosure – I find Rick Santelli’s rant to be selfish. We all need help sometimes). So I can’t figure out why, if we won the election, we are being stopped by those who lost it, and why those people shout that the ones who won the election are “stealing their country.” I think the winners ought to get to try it their way for a while.
    It would be easier to listen to your critique of “experts” if you didn’t have so many of your own – people like Dick Armey and others who have a lot to gain if Obama isn’t allowed to lead.
    What I’m hearing from the Tea Party is a lot of ideology, but the situation demands pragmatic solutions. We have to spend a lot now in order to keep from having a depression; many more of us would be jobless if the crash had continued. Most people seem to understand that.

    • >The difference is, I don’t see the “powers” being the government. In fact, I see the powers who are “destroying this country” to be from outside the government – Wall Street, having accomplished getting regulations that worked for decades overturned

      I dont see the problem limited to government, But i’m only writing comments on a blog.. not massive novels, so I have to focus my thoughts to limited topics :)

      However… Wall Street is Wall Street. They do what they do. One thing they dont do , normally is give loans to obvious credit risks.

      It takes Government to do that. And that is what the Fed Govt spent the 90s doing.. destroying the 30 Year standards and coming up with new stuff to “democratize” credit.

      The Govt told the banks to loan irresponsibly , threatening them with racial discrimination suits.

      Then the Govt promoted the GSEs as a way to create the secondary mortgage market which wasn’t very big in the 90s.

      This all just happened to coincide with the DOT COM bubble.

      It also coincided with the Clinton bailouts of LCHF, and some markets related to Mexico and Russia and then the currency crisis of 1998

      Also, Citibank did a fait accompli merger with Travelers.

      All of these things led to the insanity of the Housing Bubble…. fueled by investors who just lost trillions in the DOT COM collapsed, oiled by a low interest rate the Federal Reserve was hoping would somehow magically keep us from suffering a deep recession because of the loss of money in the bubble collapse

      With the groundwork being done already by the Government to destroy the traditional mortgage market, the 00′s market was a total unknown.

      So , because the Federal Govt wants to “help” it implicitly guaranteed mortgages made through the GSEs.

      So Govt created the architecture for the Housing Bubble and the banks only did what the Govt wanted them to do.

      It’s Government fault. And its Government these stupid banks haven’t learned their lesson. I dont know where this bailout mentality comes from. but its destructive to the core of our economic system. Failures need to fail.

      > I find Rick Santelli’s rant to be selfish. We all need help sometimes

      Then ask your neihgbor for help. Dont impose your “compassion” (yet another unpayable bailout) on me.

      You do understand that there isn’t enough money in the world to “help” people who got a mortgage during the market high?

      Plus there are contracts. Our entire society is based on contract.

      “Helping” is what caused the problem to begin with.

      >So I can’t figure out why, if we won the election, we are being stopped by those who lost it, and why those people shout that the ones who won the election are “stealing their country.”

      Because this is a Federal Republic. Not a Democracy. It’s not a Parliamentary System. The American Govt represents the American people. Not the American people who happened to result in the most electoral votes.

      And anyway no one has stopped the Democrats but the Democrats

      >What I’m hearing from the Tea Party is a lot of ideology, but the situation demands pragmatic solutions.

      The Tea Party is a reaction to massive Govt Debt.

      The pragmatic solution is to immediately scale down spending.

      > We have to spend a lot now in order to keep from having a depression

      Government is creating the Depression. Just like it created the last one.

      Only this one will be worse because there’s no more money to borrow. And instead of having just our private companies go bankrupt, we have guaranteed the entire Government of the United States is bankrupt.

      Better hope the Dollar doesn’t collapse. That will be the end of everything. The only good news there is that there doesn’t seem to be any other currency in the world that is doing any better.

      All of this gigantic mess is because of Washington. Because of their basic policies, the unintended consequences of those policies and then the typically idiotic response to “fix” the damage.

      Social Security is already out of money. I dont know how they they’re covering the shortfall. Medicare is due to be in deficit in a few years.

      The interest on the debt is going to be enormous.

      If we had honored our Constitution this could have been avoided. Instead, this is all stupidly self-inflicted.

      My family came to the United States because it was a place where they could be free and enjoy the benefits of their work. It was the land that Washington Jefferson Madisan and Adams fought to establish. And I honor their work because my family’s life could have been whatever horror it was in the place they left.

      Instead the Constitution offered another way and I honor it and the people who constructed it and their ideas and say it is the answer to the problems we face.

      The Founders never intended the Federal Govt to be the place to go for “help”… We have each other, our communities, our cities, and our States for that.

      • Strawman detected.
        Banks did not start making high risk mortgages because of government intervention. They did it because:

        A) the dotcom bubble attracted shitloads of foreign capital

        B) when the bubble broke, all that capital ended up in the banks, which had no way to offer a return on that investment. They had nothing to do with all this money.

        C) there was PROFIT to be made by people with no scruples.

        BAM, there you have it … money has to go somewhere, and people have to work somewhere … one unsustainable bubble after the next.

        The new bubble is healthcare in case you haven’t noticed.

        > “The only good news there is that there doesn’t seem to be any other currency in the world that is doing any better.”

        Try the British Pound, or the Euro.

        Look, nobody likes paying taxes, but it’s the price to be paid for living under a non-third-world system.

        The question is who gets squeezed the most. The idea that successful people and corporations should pay more taxes than the rest, is not Anti-American, or Anti-Capitalist, or Anti-Comptetative, it’s simply the people who have benefited the most from the system, paying the most.

      • >The new bubble is healthcare in case you haven’t noticed.

        I noticed, and hmmm. who directs 60% of Health Care spending? The Govt.

        And Universities with the Govt meddling in student loans

        Every where this Government turns its gaze to “help” it creates a wake of devastation.

        The last Bubble is Treasuries/Dollar

        Regarding the Euro… it’s in a debt crisis and may not even survive.

        And the Pound had a deep sell off today. but i’m sure you knew that. The UK Pound is not viewed by anyone as being better than the dollar in terms of outlook or safety.

        UK Govt debt is way worse than ours , if that’s even possible but I guess it is.

      • Social Security is faced with a temporary spike in Baby Boomers (that paid for their grandparents, parents and themselves, I am a Boomer that people love to blame).
        The current situational solution is to raise the income “cap” incrementally.
        I think it is very hard for someone of a younger generation to be told “Social Security will go bankrupt before you are able to collect” over and over and not be against it.
        The thing is, what happens to those of us that paid for ourselves and
        I will assume here, someone may not read their paycheck or literature about Social Security, the FICA tax is really insurance, F (federal) I (insurance) C (compensation) A (act) tax withheld from paychecks is “capped” at an income level of $106,000.00. Those over that amount no longer pay FICA.
        My problem with this is WHY, if someone is able to collect Social Security, would they CAP the income? Is there a means test?
        We have a pattern of reducing taxes for higher incomes… why?
        I saw a pie chart of revenue and outlay of spending and it appears the budget is dependent upon Social Security revenue and using it for other purposes.
        They want to tell people Social Security is bad and why should you pay?
        My thing is, why cap the income? People on Social Security LOVE Social Security. The people that say you will not get it, it’s dead are told they won’t get it or feel like they do not NEED it.
        What if that changed? What if the stock market and Real Estate market crashed? Oh, right, it did.
        I think the tea party folks might look at budgets and surplus under Democrats vs. Republicans.
        I am not an unquestioning Clinton supporter, but he balanced the budget by methods of cutting spending and collecting revenue. Makes sense to me!
        Clinton was for Welfare to Work, which seems to be what people really object to the welfare.
        The greatest threat to Social Security is lack of revenue.
        I have to say the same thing applies across the board. Lack of revenue.
        Jobs exported do not help with the situation.
        Jobs are needed, the stimulus is for keeping and making infrastructure repairs keep things from being worse, “creating” jobs.
        This country could really use the change we voted for, but I keep hearing filibuster, block this, block that because it will be good for “us” (R party) at election time.
        I know that brings us back to trying to find common ground.
        What is good for the country? Giving tax cuts to wealthy, allowing corporations to make unprecedented profit from scams that include lending to people that have no way to pay, then bail out said lenders? No, I thing regulating is in order, plus advocacy/tax credit for HIRING Americans for jobs, bring labor back home.
        Also, advocating renewable energy such as solar would bring more jobs.
        Instead we have ads touting coal and oil drilling.
        Stop bashing California, they have offshore drilling in Long Beach area.
        We already HAVE those things and let’s start something new that is win/win?!!?!
        Imagine factories full of employees making PV panels, wind turbines and all the installers and entrepreneurs making a ton o’ money!
        We could also breathe deeper and be less toxic!
        The anger at the government is because of the influence of corporations/private industries over government.
        Yes, we are regular people, we are getting the short end of the stick. If we can get the money out of it, we can be less beholding to those with the money.
        I don’t know how tea party or coffee party is going to get the money out of elections, but I wish us all well.
        I think spending is at issue, but people do not see that outsourcing the military is a huge problem. Rumsfeld was there for this purpose. (per Bob Woodward’s fine books Bush at War)
        Cheney was there for policies that pump up the spending military industrial (planes, etc), also oil prices rose at record rates. It was known these folks were oil people.
        Rumsfeld also had “big pharma” interests, wow, we got Medicare part D!
        How does getting mad at Democrats and cutting taxes correct this situation?
        How can we possibly keep having fewer people shoulder the load?
        Oh, I remember, big government has to be small enough to go down the drain.
        Sorry, I cannot agree with this philosophy.
        I also have to wonder what it means to “take OUR country back”.

  43. After a year of watching the Tea Party mischaracterize the President and his initiatives with the most vile of lies, it’s truly refreshing to find someone from that movement capable of initiating a conversation.

    It’s worth speaking with your adversaries, if only to discover them merely incorrect and not evil.

    • JC,

      Please enumerate the ‘most vile of lies’ the Tea Party has used to ‘mischaracterize the President and his initiatives’.

  44. “And the Democrats want to indulge in new trillion dollar entitlement programs?”

    —Simple, take the trillion dollar “entitlement programs” now being husbanded through Congress to the corporations and RE-ROUTE them to Main Street. Nations begin on Main Street, and THIS nation will END with Main Street. Any new beginning from the ashes will START at Main Street.
    What we are witnessing is a walking talking dichotomy, populist anger making noises about “drowning government in the bathtub” but in reality it is MAIN STREET being held under the water while Wall Street is being given oxygen, a saline IV and all the chocolates it can consume.

  45. From my experience, I would prefer we begin by talking with all the non-TeaParty folks, as I see trying to reconcile viewpoints with them as the equivalent of talking pro-choice with pro-life advocates or debating an interpretive belief in the Bible with a person who lives by the literal word.

    There are countless shattered fragments of the rest of us out here who don’t have a common voice or image. I would like to begin by examining our various beliefs and what we have in common. Once we come to some workable conclusions, THEN we can engage the direct opposite of our stance. There are so many GOPers who have pragmatic points of view with whom we may share common ground. Those who are absolutely black and white, in or out types most likely have no interest in talking with us, anyway. It takes a little doubt, a little inquisitiveness to grow, doesn’t it?

    • Marti,

      Why don’t you share your ‘viewpoints’ and ‘various beliefs’ with us. You might find ‘WE’ have an ‘interest in talking with (you), anyway’.

      How should the Federal Government tax and spend the People’s Money?

      The States?

      The Localities?

  46. Your note: The greatest misconception your side seems to have of the Tea Party is its “obstructionist” nature.
    ===
    Maybe I misunderstood, but my understanding was that the T-Party was involved in the civil unrest that surfaced during the local health care townhalls last August. The audience members were instilling fear and fanning the flames of misinformation. Whoever was behind those protests was obstructing the civil discourse on health care. I apologize for my misunderstanding if those loud audidience members were not representative of the Tea Party.

    • You were probably thinking of the SEIU. It happens.

      • No. You are right Jody. And please stop apologizing to these people for being correct.

        My townhall in Richmond was dominated by an aggressive minority of petulantly childish, smug, entitled, dim, seething militant anarchists wearing Teabagging paraphenernalia.

        Unfortunately the SEIU was not there, and so the camaraderie of collective action by the working class did not brighten the event. But many disparate citizens from all walks of life joined to stand up for “the least of these” in support of universal public health insurance.

        With adversaries like this Vince tool, and like the ones we opposed at the townhall, with all the nonsense and agitation they foment, it becomes more clear every day that America and the rightwing movement are on a collision course.

  47. To add a point to Jody’s question: what was the point of bringing guns to the Town Meetings last summer if not to intimidate and instill fear in the opposition?

    This is the antithesis of free speech – a direct assault on the very FIRST amendment to the Constitution.

    Why is it that whenever the right screams loudest about something sacred to America – free speech, freedom, self-governance, the Constitution – we see evidence of active work to despoil it.

  48. I appreciate Mr. Hudson’s time in writing this letter, and I genuinely think that this is what he hopes the Tea Party can be. If that is the case, I admire him for it – mostly. As others have mentioned, the “fundamental principles underlying the Tea Party movement which cannot be compromised” statement, however, gives me pause – because they are all vague concepts that mean completely different things to different people, and the breadth of what each contains also can vary according to personal definition.

    That said, I am concerned that what Mr. Hudson says the Tea Party’s core mission is, and what the Tea Party actually projects is not the same. Had the Tea Party been what he claims it to be, I may have joined. But from personal experience, that is not what the Tea Party is about.

    I’ve witnessed two Tea Party events in my area – one out of curiosity early on to see what they were were, and the other because of morbid curiosity, and none of what Mr. Hudson mentions were present. The events I saw were filled with hate – specifically against President Obama (the vast majority of speeches and signs reflecting), but also against immigrants – both legal and illegal – against “dirty liberals” (ironically while they were protesting in liberal New England) and specifically stating that everything under the “socialist” Democratic government should be prevented from happening, that obstruction was vital on all fronts to prevent our nation from destroying itself.

    Let me repeat that – they promoted obstruction as vital. Not just on health care, but on Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, on appointments to positions within the federal government, on a recent jobs creation bill, and virtually everything else that has gone through Congress since Obama took office.

    I would be more readily to believe Mr. Hudson’s claims had the Tea Party not conveniently begun a mere month after Obama took office. Had it started in October or November 2008, when Bush passed the original TARP bill, leading to the primary “excess spending” used by the Tea Party to demonize Obama, I might believe the motives. But the timing makes it far too difficult for me to believe that the Tea Party, as a whole, is not just an anti-Obama and anti-Liberal crusade, following up on the “if you’re not with us, you’re against us/you’re anti-American” crusade after 9/11 for anyone who dared voice the Constitutionally-granted right to disagree with the government.

    While I would love to discuss and find a common ground (at best) and a compromise (at least) with those on the conservative side, I find myself increasingly frustrated – and often unwilling to say anything – because it is impossible to discuss and compromise with people who start out by screaming that I’m a rabid socialist who hates America. That, sadly, has been my experience with the vast majority on the right. It has caused me to break friendships and even distance myself from family because the disagreements go beyond conversation into personal insults, including demands to never step in certain homes again if I continue to believe the way I do about particular issues. Such threats came from family members who are Tea Party members.

    The problem with reluctance to say anything is that it simply allows one side to have its views aired exclusively. That, again, is not a debate. Nor is it a discussion. It is control and it is an attempt to shame and punish for disagreement.

    I continue to hope that someday I will be able to converse with conservatives who, like me, love this nation, wish to make it stronger, and recognize that progress must be made, that this nation cannot stand still by the simple force of time, and that together we are stronger than we are separate. I firmly believe that within the Tea Party, there are sure to be many exemplary citizens willing to find solutions with their neighbors. I hope someday to meet them.

    I figure they must exist somewhere – and that’s why I joined the Coffee Party.

    • MELISSA said:
      “I’ve witnessed two Tea Party events in my area – one out of curiosity early on to see what they were were, and the other because of morbid curiosity, and none of what Mr. Hudson mentions were present. The events I saw were filled with hate – specifically against President Obama (the vast majority of speeches and signs reflecting), but also against immigrants – both legal and illegal – against “dirty liberals” ”

      –Second that here. I not only OBSERVED all of that and more, I covered it as a journalist and have all of that, AND MORE on tape. Town hall after town hall, meeting after meeting, angry obstructionist crowd after angry obstructionist crowd, all I witnessed was misspelt signs, misguided populist anger and misanthropy. It was enough to be an Ole “Mis” Convention.

  49. I don’t know what those tea party people want except to hate Obama, and what ever he tries to do. No one here has mentioned cutting military spending, instead of social security! Both parties are beholden to special interests, so nothing will ever get done for the people. Why are tea party people against government helping the people? That is the purpose of government. They would rather the government enrich the already obscenely wealthy? That is what is seems like.

    • You can generate enough electricity to power Philadelphia for a month if there was some way to harness the rolling around in their graves by the Founding Fathers at the thought that an American thinks the purpose of the Federal Government is to “help” people.

      And what is with this fetish of doing everything at the worst level of govt possible?

      • Well there you have it, an actual proposal that could help solve the energy crisis.

  50. We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    What is forming a more perfect union, promote general welfare and secure blessings of liberty for our posterity, common defense but helping people?

    • By creating a Limited , Constrained and Enumerated Federal Govt, the Constitution helps people by protecting their liberty from a government that would otherwise succumb to human nature and become the master of men rather than the mastered.

      • The government is also there to protect the country from enemies foreign and domestic – and the country is more than the people, and enemies can have weapons other than bombs and guns. Like major corporations that willingly destroy the environment, pollute the air and water of entire communites, and treat the working class like slaves. Thats what we had before the government and unions stepped up to protect the people.

  51. I just posted something about military spending and social security above, but you posted before me.
    I am suspicious of motives of tea party because of what I have seen. I also want to have a debate, so I give some latitude.
    I hope for a discussion free of name calling, even though I agree with some of the posts having to do with SOME (most?) of the Tea Party people having motives that are just geared toward topics we are avoiding in the name of civility.
    I have to wonder if it is possible, though.

  52. I applaud Mr Hudson’s calm and rational approach. I agree where there cannot currently be unity of purpose, clarity on positions and goals is essential.

    As he notes, it may well not be possible and is certainly not likely that all US citizens would see eye to eye on all issues, but we may share more common ground than we realize.

    And, with regard to conventional, partisan politics, I’m somewhat fed up with the peculiar shortcomings of both sides.

    There are certainly people working within the system I admire (and I’m not among the easily disillusioned who blame lack of an overnight end to current troubles on the current executive), but, like many US citizens, I’m frustrated with the intersection of partisan politics and the legislative process.

    If some of the leaders won’t behave like adults, maybe people of good faith from all fields of political thought can show them how real people find common ground through cooperation and dialog.

    Or… we could tear each other apart. I guess it’s up to us to decide.

  53. This was very thoughtful commentary and I appreciate it. I recently joined the ‘Coffee Party’, primarily because of my desire for more civil dialogue. This commentary goes a long way toward that goal.

    I have followed the tea party activism over this past year and have tried to understand the underlying principles while ignoring all the ‘crazy stuff’ that always accompanies these kind of efforts. Of course, in some cases ‘crazy’ is just a form of passion. I’m happy to see that my understanding of the basic principles is not far off with the reference to “fiscal responsibility, free markets, [and constitutionally] limited government.”

    I know that there will be many areas of disagreement but I am encouraged by the thoughtfulness of this piece and the willingness to find whatever common ground there may be.

  54. So I see a number of references to some URL teaparty.org and then howls of condemnation and demands that people state their position. And of course, the thing I originally predicted, as sure as rain.. cries of racism. Lots of comments about how disgusted one person is vs another.. and who is more angry and offended… and all the other typical performance art those of us who aren’t Leftists get quite bored with.

    So it comes to no surprise to me that it’s yet another case of false accusation.

    If there’s one fundamental principle of American Leftist politics I’ve learned… it’s this.

    When one of them makes an accusation that’s all the crowd needs to get activated. And when it’s eventually shown the accusation is false… the correction never comes.

    I just happened to read this now, and noticed the URL in one of the links in the story.

    The guy is a phony… teaparty.org is a phony.

    And I suspect the people who put so much effort into talking about it here are phony too.

    From newsbusters.org

    Fake Tea Partier Also a Phony Soldier
    By Lachlan Markay (Bio | Archive)
    Mon, 03/01/2010 – 18:56 ET

    Dale Robertson, the racist nut who many in the media have paraded as emblematic of Tea Party attendees, claims to be a “leader” of the movement. In fact, he is a loner who has been rebuffed by every Tea Party group with which he has associated.

    Of course that did not dissuade the liberal media from unquestionably presenting him as the “leader” he dubiously claimed to be. The Washington Post and liberal blog Talking Points Memo both portrayed him as such, despite the fact that numerous Tea Party groups have publicly denounced him (none, as far as I can tell, have backed him).

    It turns out his “leadership” is not the only thing Robertson embellished. In a brief bio on his website, he lies about his military career. According to the website,

    Dale served his nation first as a U.S. Marine. After completing his duties with the Corps, he reenlisted into the U.S. Navy and became a U.S. Naval Officer. During his distinguished time of service, Dale’s Battle Group was first to the scene on 9/11 as well as first to launch an offensive in Afghanistan. He was stationed on the USS Sacramento which was the life blood of the Battle Group. He faithfully served our nation with Honor and Integrity, retiring after 22 years.

    But a Freedom of Information Act request by blogger Jonn Lilyea at This Ain’t Hell reveals that Robertson was discharged from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserves after serving less than a year. That is quite an embellishment from the record he claims on his website. Robertson’s statement is, in fact, riddled with falsehoods.

    Jim Hoft asks, “what are the odds that the state-run media ignores this, too?” Yes, it was a rhetorical question.

    TPM, WaPo, and others in the liberal media will no doubt ignore Robertson until he pops up again with another derogatory sign, or runs in front of television cameras shouting racial slurs. That, after all, has been the extent of Tea Party coverage thus far–we’ve been given no reason to believe that facts will change a thing.

    —Lachlan Markay is an associate with Dialog New Media. Make sure to follow him on Twitter.

    • SO …

      1) this guy is NOT representative of the TEA party?
      2) teaparty.org is not affiliated with the TEA Party proper?
      3) the actual TEA party is prepared to publicly denounce this dude, his website, AND ALL of his insane bullshit?

      if all that’s true then I’ve got to admit, I may have jumped to some conclusions. But then that’d be fairly understandable being as how this fella has gone to an awful lot of trouble to fly the Tea Party flag prominently. That and his half-baked insane rantings are incredibly reminiscent of: A) Glenn Beck, B) the Patriot Militia Movement and C) with heavy traces of Ayn Rand. All of which seem to be part and parcel of the TEA party ideology as it’s been described to me (even if that description is a distortion of the “main stream media”).

      In other words, you can see how people might draw that conclusion, because the guy had branded him self AS the TEA party, and his rhetoric matches a lot of what we’ve already heard and seen at TEA party rallies.

      Also this:

      When one of them makes an accusation that’s all the crowd needs to get activated. And when it’s eventually shown the accusation is false… the correction never comes.

      You mean like “Death Panels”, “Birth Certificates”, and “Global Warming can’t possibly be true because it’s snowing outside”?

      C’mon. Both sides are sadly guilty of that tactic, dude.

  55. Vince, I did not know about this fake tea partier and appreciate the heads up.
    On the other hand, I was amused when you said this:
    If there’s one fundamental principle of American Leftist politics I’ve learned… it’s this.
    “When one of them makes an accusation that’s all the crowd needs to get activated. And when it’s eventually shown the accusation is false… the correction never comes.”
    Isn’t this, after all, the very description of the tea partiers at “town halls”?
    So I guess what we’re all saying is that it’s time to get past it.

  56. I’m fascinated by the open dialogue and, as a tea party member, excited by our similar reactions to our current national situation. I, too, welcome civil dialogue at the citizen level and think we all can drive the national dialogue. (Wouldn’t it be cool if there was a weekly tv show where great individuals could debate our “great issues”… would be fantastic and maybe even allow us to understand each other’s points-of-view and not just react to media distortions!) I don’t know where some of the Coffee party members get some of their ideas of what we’re about, but I suspect mainstream tv and a few signs. My experience with liberty groups is that they’re filled with serious, informed people that want our government to be SUSTAINABLE….economically (in particular). If there is one trait I see I could say we have is that we are realists. We just feel more polititians have to realize that we just can’t afford to do everything!!!! We know that polititians have made promises that they can never keep, made policy that was well-intentioned but had terrible unintended consequences, have allowed corporations (and other special interests) to have way too much influence in policy while corrupting them, have refused to make any meaningful steps to control illegal immigration. (I personally reject that that last statement makes me racist, as I am not. Face it, we cannot sustain the current levels of entitlements and services given to illegals.) Everyone I know (in the liberty groups) loves their country and knows how a country is weakened when we’re so weak economically. I don’t know a sole that thinks we shouldn’t pay taxes! What the signs are about is that we KNOW that all the spending WILL result in huge tax INCREASES. We can’t stand that current policies will result in future generations being slaves to taxes. We are driven by our desire to leave a decent country for our children and grandchildren and right now have serious doubts whether that will happen. It does us no good to diminish ourselves by using derogatory comments…..we’re all good people. Lets’ just debate, educate each other, agree to disagree sometimes, and stay involved as citizens. Reading well-thought-out arguments raises us all. Lets do more.

    • Sonia, I can follow you down the rabbit-hole on immigration IF you’ll follow me down on labor economics. To me there is no such thing as a job an American won’t do. There are however very few jobs an American will do for 2 dollars an hour. What is fueling illegal immigration is the lawlessness of the employers who hire them and the willingness of the rest of us to look the other way.
      Solving the economic issues will require cross-boarder thinking as well, because a WTO that fails to support the economic rights of workers will (and has) harmed the standard of living for millions of Americans.

  57. Government is not your enemy. Free market economy ends up with individuals in industry who destroy and poison the ecology for personal profit. How does the Tea Party expect to limit dumping of waste into our water and air?

  58. I initially viewed the Coffee Party as an angry rebuttal to the Tea Party, but I don’t think it’s that simple and it doesn’t have to be a war. Both parties are made up of citizens fed up with the way Washington DC does its business. Both are legitimate grassroots movements that can and should shape future dialogues.

    There will probably never be reconciliation between the two as to what the true nature of goverment should be. But I can think of 3 very important issues both may agree on (I could be wrong, but I hope not):

    1. Banking reform legislation. No more bail-outs.
    2. A Constitutional Amendment to declare that corporations are not “persons” with the same rights to influence elections and the political process as actual humans. This is a democracy, not a corporatocracy.
    3. Campaign finance reform so that our elected official are beholden to the people, and not to special interests and industries.

    I think we can agree on those things?

    • As a Coffee Party member, I’ll agree with you 100% on 2 and 3. 100%

      I think we need to have a disucussion about #1, however. Banking Reform Legislation can’t just be “no more bailouts”. Regulation of banking must stop the current game of russian roulette Wall Street is playing with the world economy. Return glass stegal, regulate or eliminate deritives, protect consumers.

      If the meat packing industry were run with as little regulation as Wall Street, only vegetarians would survive.

      Nothing has happened to stop another great recession, we’ve just bought a bit of time by mortgaging everything we’ve got.

  59. To be certain emotions about how our gov’t is representing the interests of the people – AKA the gov’t – have overlap. However, it appears based on Walter’s consitutional interpretations that the gov’t, AKA the people, should get their tax dollars back for services not rendered. In theory wouldn’t that be wonderful. Let’s start over, right? Well, history tells us a different story. Our forefathers cared about social services. This we know by their precise measures for infrastructure, the development of the articles of the Confederation, and finally a US Constitution with 3 branches of gov’t for checks and balances. Further, the principles of Lincoln preserved the Union and it’s progressive covenant, thus manifesting into the Emancipation of all citizens (atleast men at that time) within the Constitution.

    Those of us who are constitutional geeks and historian buffs know what has made this country strong. WE, work to make our lives better, and in essence provide opportunity for others to do the same. It is our broader covenant with the people’s consent to those services we provide with our tax $$: library access for all, national parks, roads, sanitation, education, historic preservation, postal service, etc. Most of the aforementioned operate within “non-profit” principles with significant regulatory oversight, and represent 13% of federal tax $$ allocation. When money isn’t used within the year of the budget allocation, the remaining dollars go back into the general fund.

    This is where our story of how our tax $$ are allocated between two different operating principles. We have non-profits which oversee social programs, and “for profit gov’t subsidized entities” within our gov’t budget.

    When Eisenhower was Pres., and the economy was very strong, there were only 10% for-profit gov’t subsidized industries receiving funds. Further, he warned about some of the changing ideals within his party pushing for more private corporations to facilitate gov’t programs. He told his party elite that ‘it didn’t work in Hoover’s day, had we not learned our lesson?’ Currently, 77% of our tax $$ are given to “for profit corporate gov’t subsidized” industries. These industries include, but not limited to, Defense, Oil/Gas/Energy, Agribusiness, Insurance, Big Pharma, etc, and work as for profit entities with our tax $$. In otherwords, tax $$ are used for CEO bonuses, shareholders, adminstrative overheads (employees/bonuses) with the remainder – less than 18% going back into the “service” they were contracted to provide.

    Unfortunately, they provide 77% of all the jobs in America, and use that economic king-pin, as much as possible to force citizens to remain compliant to their whims. I see the banners at the Tea Parties “Obama-nomics and regulation will bankrupt us all!” Friends, we are bankrupt. Small business has taken a beating, and been gutted by the c-corps legislative attempts to regulate them into submission. The big players operate under minimal or non-existent regulation. Small business on the hand is burdened with regulation. The big companies are no friend to small business, despite the Chamber of Commerce assertions that it is. The more Americans can wean themselves from these corporate giants the more power we will have. It takes $$ to make $$, and it takes workers to do the dirty work these “executives” can’t do.

    We have more power than we realize!We can have our economic revolution without the guns, just our $$. Less regulation on small business with more regulation on big business. The catch phrase here: “Free enterprise is not gov’t subsidized”. The sand in the vaseline? These big c-corps don’t pay taxes. No taxes going back into the “cooki jar” to help strengthen services that we want and need. Who pays? Me and small business. Anyone making over $60,000 -$250,000 pay for every social program and big corp subsidies. In today’s economy, there aren’t many of us left. Our health insurance alone jumped $7000 last year to $10,000!

    For Health Care govt’ subsidies alone we spend 17% of our federal tax $$ for what we have. I was suprised that Lamar Alexander spilled those figures to the public at last week’s historic Summit. Every taxpayer pays for Health Care whether you have it or not. We cannot change that legislatively without the reform or reconcialtion of the budget. Guess L. Alexander forgot he was on camera, when he qualified to the public that , “We all pay for our current mess with no returns.” However, CEO’s and shareholders are holding thier profit margins, while the rest of us collapse.

    Let’s continue to follow our $$. When these companies do not meet “profit margin” thresholds they appeal to the US Gov’t AKA the people through the legislative body and ask for “more money” – Omnibus Reconciliation. The extra money comes from where? The General Fund! The fund that was built under the sound practices of the non-profits who are designed to put money into the program, but “reserve” funds for future disbursements. Essentially, the profit margin practices of the subsidized C-corps, relies on the regulatory squirrling from social services. Guess who gets the funds? Guess where those funds come from? Mostly, the big services like Medicare and SS, because the rest of them have been nearly defunct from big corp slushing their reserves. It’s no wonder most are nearly bankrupt, but not because of their inability to retain and disburse funds. Our social programs have been robbed of their financial resources. It’s like going to your savings account for something you saved for, only to find it’s gone a year later.

    Our social funds for services like roads, SS, Medicare, parks, housing, urban development, postal etc., etc, are legally being slushed by corporations to protect profits for CEO’s and shareholders. Corporate greed dipping their fingers in the “peoples’” cooki jar, and having the gall to talk about “fiscal responsibility” under the GOP flag for nearly 6 decades plus! Further, millions of our tax dollars are dumped into the media machine, like NewsCorp – Rupert Murdoch’s chain, to keep feeding the public on the fiscal viability of “no taxes”. Even more money is dumped into lobbying efforts to write and promote legislation through our representatives.

    Americans are so disenfranchised from the source of our economic situtation. Many have lost touch with the processes of our nation. Perfect example, believing that the President was soliciting a “Bill” at the Health Care Summit. The Pres placed areas of “common ground” on the table to open discussion on moving from a point of agreement. The 14 items on the table were 14 points agreed to by both House and Senate in both parties to start from that point. What came back in return was a GOP, basically dismissing the things they brought to the table.

    In conclusion, I hope both Tea Party and Coffee Party, AKA all Americans, can have serious dialogue. Education and civic engagement among our citizens – not party politics – will be the push we need to bring our nation together. We also need to be willing to listen to each other with compassion, not anger. I’m tired of holding many in the Tea Party accountable for some racists. Here on the left we’re no different. We’re discrimatory, as well. There are certainly “my way or the highway” folks on both sides of the aisle.

    I believe in paying taxes for services that are effective for all Americans with oversight and accountability. I don’t mind looking at those programs which are not providing returns for the investment $$, even if it means a pet Democrat project. That being said, I don’t believe in “trickle-down” economics. Continuing to subsidize for profit industries doesn’t work. Let them work under the same principles as a “non profit” with our tax $$. We need to be good monitors of how our tax $$ is allocated, period. It’s program performance. I’m certain we’re all closer to the root of the problem than our media info-tainment maniacs want us to believe.

    Blessings to both sides with common sense (cents) in the coming months. Progress not perfection is my goal. I do support this adminstration, and will continue to do so, and hope others will join me in the effort. – Just Anita

  60. One of the great mysteries of the current debate is how so many people seem to miss an obvious truth: the poll numbers that conservatives cite as “opposition to the current health care bill” or “anger at Congress” include both the conservative backlash AND the liberal backlash. And those liberals are not just angry at the obstructionism of the republicans, but also at the democrats who are acting like such wimps. They don’t oppose health care reform, they oppose wimpy health care refore.

  61. PS
    My spelling and grammar suck today. I was typing very fast, and sent without edits.

  62. The only thing that concerns me about the rush to rewrite regulations is that the people who are doing the regulating are the very same people who protected the GSE racket that caused the most economic damange.

    And they certainly dont acknowedlge their mistakes or role in protecting the system and keeping meaningful pre-crisis reforms from being accomplished.

    This Congress shows no sign whatsoever that it has learned any lessons at all.. and in fact it they’re doing so much market interfernece in teh desperate hope to try to reinflate as much as the bubble as possible.

    We are only in the beginning of the economic collapse. The floor is going to give way. This Government is not going to protect you or prepare you.

    The prudent thing to do would be to flush out Congress of all the people who have failed this country. Not empower them to work thier magice and destroy more and more… which they surely intend to do.

    Time is short. Only the American People can stop the maniacs in Washington . The question is.. is it already too late?

  63. I, too, would welcome open and civil dialogue sans sarcasm and vitriol. I would also appreciate specifics to back up claims. Walt refers to adhering to the constitution in regards to the Health Care discussion(debate) and the accusation of obstructionism in general. I hope he will take the time to help me understand how the bi-partisan meeting stepped outside the box of the Constitution.

    Thank you for trying to provide an open, honest, thoughtful discussion to create understanding if not agreement.

    • We have Seperation of Powers . This seperation was intended to prevent an aggregation of political power.

      The President was not supposed to be a Commitee Chairman. (In fact when Obama had that office for a subcommittee when he was a Senator he didn’t hold any meetings at all)

      THe President is not a legislator. It’s not his primary job description to oversee legislation creation

      The Peoples’ representatives are supposed to be independent of the Executive and free from overt direct intimidation

      The Democrats intention for this meeting was supposed to be theater to show the GOP in a bad light. Somehow, they actually did a good job

      But regardless.. what you’re seeing is the rise of Fascist America. These people in power have no respect for American Constitution and they intend to rule everything.

      • I’m sorry, but that is utterly absurd, paranoid and frankly offensive.

      • Yeah yeah.. Everything you don’t like is a form of mental illness or offends your precious sensibilties or is some other thing that is described as if it’s a disease. What a great historically-minded analysis! You are so reasoned and rational. Your logic is without question!

  64. Last week, a young friend of ours quite unexpectedly died. He left behind 3 young children. As it happens, he talked a lot like Vince. However, because our society decided it should be this way, his children are now eligible for social security dependents’ benefits, as is his young wife. His children are also now eligible for SCHIP. In the “good old days” before we had these things, she and her children would be destitute, or the good people of the village might have taken her children from her so they could have a good home. The church is helping, her neighbors are helping – yes, they are and it is wonderful. But they aren’t going to be able to support her all by themselves for her children’s entire childhood. We, in our representative democracy agreed to do this together. It is true that if we aren’t raising enough money to do it, we need to raise taxes (raising the cap on social security would do it) – I’m not suggesting that we should be borrowing from the Chinese to do it. But I think those who embrace the ideological point that it is wrong to compel one another through taxation to do it are missing a couple of things: we the people agreed through our representatives to do it, because we learned that voluntarily, we DON’T do it. It’s not true that it’s unsustainable – other countries do it all the time, and we just need to pay for it. It’s ok to pay for it, because I never know if tomorrow I or my children might need it. What I think goes unsaid here is that the TP folks want to pick and choose which people in trouble they want to help – and which ones they emphatically don’t. But what keeps our country from decline is immigration; we’ve got a great big statue in a harbor that says “give me your poor.” People should come here legally (and while we’re at it, we should get some actual facts about all the services those who aren’t here legally are supposedly using and not paying for – I’ll bet it’s quite different than advertised), but we agreed to help one another through Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and the vast majority of us like it that way.

  65. @ Vince1974. I just had this exact same question from a Tea Party friend on the other side of the aisle. I said, “Well, I don’t think it’s too late. We’re both still breathing”. He went onto say that he really enjoys our discussions. He’s wracked with questions after we’re done. That’s the point. Politics closes our minds. Civic participation engages it. I believe, regardless of our affiliations, if we’re posting, we’ve made some common sense decisions that haven’t killed us yet. We’re all on common ground. Let’s breathe. We do know our passion needs to be directed to those obstructionists on both sides. There was an excellent article in SLATE “Don’t Blame the Politicians”….Sounds wimpy, but it really nails my feelings, and by the numbers growing in the “coffee party” it has jolted many into action. Can you imagine the trauma during the Civil War? We can get through this. History tells us we can, if we’re willing to question and find “common ground” for moving forward. Feel free to follow me on Twitter @MomMakingChange

  66. I have one question for the Tea Party? Where have you guys been for the past decade, when a republican administration was trashing the constitution, running up deficits to levels never seen before, and generally acting like they were dictators, instead of elected officials? A rhetorical question, as I know the answer. You wouldn’t dare confront a republican president for doing these things, but a democrat, let alone a black guy, it’s open season. I’m as frustrated with our government as anyone, but the hypocrisy of the Tea Party keeps me from seeing them as problem solvers, but only as they truely are: republicans (the party of “no” solutions). BTW, you really need to get a different messiah than S. Palin.

  67. @Walter, I have read many of your thoughtful “answers” to readers’ comments, and have gained insight to your perspectives. In that light, I’d like to offer some suggestions for further review to you and your readers. When interpreting the Consitution, or citing articles, you must also consider SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States) rulings, which have interpreted that language. Further, it’s important for your readers to understand that our legislation is written within the parameters of SCOTUS rulings on the Constitution.

    There are many of us who believe, corporate Personhood set a slippery sword for the humanity of the Constitution, starting back in 1868. Corporate personhood interpretation within in our legislation and budget allocations is at the root of my very lengthy post. I don’t believe you or your readers have touched upon this fact in anything I’ve read, thus far. Corporations are people too under the Constitution, and therefore have all the rights humans have. The human factor is often the debate on the Hill. Hence the Democrats who are generally more concerned with social programs to help humans, and the opposition being the Republicans who tend to favor corporate support, as being the liberating vehicle for humans.

    In fact, denying our large c-corps gov’t subsidies, our tax $$ is “un-Constitutional, and cited by many CEO’s with attempts at “reconciliation” as taking money they’re entitled to have. Look at the disbursements to CEO’s on Wall Street, that the gov’t was required to pay. Was it moral? NO. Was it legal? Yes. We’ve got to start putting the pieces – of how our governing system works – into place. It’s not just our Constitution. It’s how it’s been interpreted that provides us with the essential tools we’ll need to move forward. This isn’t just about political or ideological divides. Our system has tipped, and is unbalanced. It’s the battle between corporate and human rights, using political ideologies has promotional king-pins. It’s the struggle between the two entities being served within the Constitution that filters down to who we are as a nation, and who has the greater need to be served. It’s probably a shocker for some. The anger is coming from people realizing something isn’t working. It’s like walking into ACT IV of a play without knowing the script. Knowing this script is what we call, civics.

    All citizens would be wise to spend time learning about the US Constitution, SCOTUS rulings, and the the legislation that places corporate rights over human need in our legislation. A fabulous cite for newbie-historians and civics buffs, is the Center for Civic Education. I’ve been involved with them since the ’90′s. It’s a wonderful interactive cite with lots of debate and discussion on the Constitution, the rulings we have to live with, and the legislative attempts to balance rights between humans and corporations.

    When you’re ready to push the envelope on your own beliefs go to harvardjustice.org , a free online program with Harvard U. with a fabulous interactive link to PBS Justice. It’s a great tool for really tweaking personal positions, morally and politically. I have no doubts many on this page will enjoy both tools. Education is not elitist, it’s manadatory for all of us to be a functioning self-governing society. Embrace education! Blessings, Just Anita

    • While I don’t argue the imbalance in the current reading of Corporate Law and Corporate personhood, I have to object to “Corporations are people too under the Constitution, and therefore have all the rights humans have” as being a bit overblown. That we even speak that way is an indication of the problem.

      First, Corporate personhood is by no means enshrined in the Constitution. It is a function of state law. There was a HUGE fight over whether the U.S. could even issue a Corporate Charter and SCOTUS had to resort to the necessary powers clause to justify one (second bank cases).
      Second, Corporations don’t have “all” the rights of persons. A Corporation is a legal construct of the State and therefore has those rights and responsibilities given to it by state law.

      HOW you draw the lines between the rights of a natural person v. the rights of a legal person is where it all gets a bit fuzzy. I completely agree that we’ve gone too far in suggesting a corporation has the rights and responsibilities of a natural person unless there is state interest in limiting them. I would be far closer to a reading that says that Corporations have ONLY those enumerated rights responsibilities granted to them.

      However the idea of repealing all “Corporate personhood” is absurd, as the ability to sue and be sued on it’s own behalf, and render the shareholders immune from personal liability, are really the point of a Corporation. Those mechanisms are just too valuable to the process of capital formation, and to repeal them now would leave us at the economic mercy of the current haves, with no means for the lowly entrepreneur to challenge the status quo.

      Question: does the individual state have the right to limit the election spending of it’s chartered corporations? How about the election spending of those corporations doing business in that state? For state elections? For federal elections?

  68. Going in circles is such a sum zero pastime. Seems to me that every discussion just turns into a game of Constitutional pointy headed jeopardy that just sends most people heading for the door or the video game controller. We are where we are NOW and have to dig out from the HERE and NOW. Seems to me that the object of both sides should be to help this country stay afloat, by any means necessary, until it is stabilized and THEN commit to curing the cancer that has been ignored for TOO many years.
    One side is beating up hungry unemployed people with lofty words and the other side is trying to force those who kept them down with greed to show some SHAME! Sum zero!
    Nothing we could do in just the next 2-3 years is going to sink this Ship Of State…………unless we DO nothing. So please spare us all the empty rhetoric and silly demands made just to APPEAR concerned. What we NEED now are JOBS, Health Care, decent schools and a commitment to repair our crumbling roads and infrastructure before we have one of those 8.8 ‘surprises’ that Mother Nature has been handling out with great regularity of late! When we find ourselves or our KIDS underneath a collapsed building………..neither one of us will give a rats hairy keister who we VOTED for!

  69. I do not like hearing anyone referred to as the “enemy.” The only enemy is fear and that is why I have been turned off by the tea party. The article written above sounds good; but I haven’t actually seen it proven by actions. It seems to me to be rhetoric and I am not saying this out of any animosity, just observation.

  70. The Coffee Party is nothign more than a Partisan political operation. Did the Washington Post or the New York Times reveal this about the people who started this?

    Updated Feb.25,2008

    http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200802/200802250010.html

    A Korean-American filmmaker is in charge of creating video clips that are playing a role in increasing support for Senator Barack Obama, the frontrunner for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination.

    “I found that people have little understanding of the change that Senator Barack Obama is advocating. I thought from my experience in using videos for civil movements that videos would be the best way to promote the need for change and for Obama. That’s why I decided to work for the Obama campaign,” Annabel Park said.

    Joining the contest in December last year as chief of a promotional video team, Park has produced some 20 five-minute video clips which have generated a positive response. A clip interviewing actress Kelly Hu in support of the senator was viewed some 10,000 times, and a music video called “Oh Bama” [embed below, Park appears at 1:35]] drew wide attention. She has also produced Spanish-language videos to draw support from Hispanics.

    The 40-year-old Park is leading an Obama promotional section on video-sharing site YouTube (www.youtube.com/unitedforobama) with around 10 other volunteers.

    So as you can see this yet more deception by the folks on the Left. As you can tell from the above comments, they have little understanding of the Constitution, they have contempt for Americans who oppose the Leftist assault on it, they have no problem spreading lies and innuendo in an effort to delegitimize people who oppose them.

    • Oh well. So much for dialogue. Peace out.

  71. @VinceP1974 LOL! There are a lot of us on “the left” with Juris Doctors in Constitutional Law, and we find it amusing that many like you seem to believe, we – on “the left”, including former Professor of Constitutional Law Studies – President Obama, don’t understand the Constitution. It’s OK. We educated elitists aren’t taking offense. However, it’s apparent where these “great dialogues” are going with this page. Apologies for engaging anyone is real discussion, and taking time away from ‘preparing for battle against the leftist assault.’ Just a quick question. How far left does one have to be leftist, and from what point of left on the right does that label start on the scale? Oh, never mind. I’m not certain you’d get my snarky question, anyway. Time to grab my cup of “coffee”. Blessings, Just Anita

    • Anita: You made this claim earlier:

      
      " Well, history tells us a different story. Our forefathers cared about social services. This we know by their precise measures for infrastructure, the development of the articles of the Confederation, and finally a US Constitution "
      
      Please cite us where the Founders are quoted as saying they want the Federal Govt to provide "services". 
      
      History tells the OPPOSITE story.  
      
      Selected paragraphs from
      
      http://www.learntheconstitution.com/social-welfare.html
      
      [...]
      
      Within a short time the Americans, as a people, were on the way top becoming the most prosperous and best-educated nation in the world. The key was using the government to protect equal rights, not to provide equal things. Samuel Adams said the ideas of a welfare state were made unconstitutional by the Founders:
      
      “The utopian schemes of leveling (redistribution of the wealth) and a community of goods (central ownership of all the means of production and distribution) are as visionary and impracticable as those which vest all property in the Crown. (These ideas) are arbitrary, despotic, and, in our government, unconstitutional.”
      
      [...]
      
      Franklin wrote a whole essay on the subject and told one of his friends: “I have long been of your opinion, that your legal provision for the poor (in England ) is a very great evil, operating as it does to the encouragement of idleness. We have followed your example, and begin now to see our error, and, I hope, shall reform it.”
      
      [...]
      
      Franklin wrote: “To relieve the misfortunes of our fellow creatures is concurring with the Deity; it is godlike; but, if we provide encouragement for laziness, and supports for folly, may we not be found fighting against the order of God and Nature, which perhaps has appointed want and misery as the proper punishments for, and cautions against, as well as necessary consequences of, idleness and extravagance? When ever we attempt to amend the scheme of Providence , and to interfere with the government of the world, we had need be very circumspect, lest we do more harm than good.”
      
      [...]
      
      The U. S. Constitution states in Article I, section 8: The people of the states empower the Congress to expend money (for the enumerated purposes listed in Article I, section 8), provided it is done in a way that benefits the general welfare of the whole people. 
      
      Thomas Jefferson explained that this clause was not a grant of power to “spend” for the general welfare of the people, but was intended to “limit the power of taxation” to matters which provided for the welfare of “the Union ” or the welfare of the whole nation. In other words, federal taxes could not be levied for states, countries, cities, or special interest groups. (Making of America p 387)
      

      • Something bizarre happened, i’ll have to retype it:

        Anita: You made this claim earlier:

        ” Well, history tells us a different story. Our forefathers cared about social services. This we know by their precise measures for infrastructure, the development of the articles of the Confederation, and finally a US Constitution ”

        Please cite us where the Founders are quoted as saying they want the Federal Govt to provide “services”.

        History tells the OPPOSITE story.

        Selected paragraphs from

        http://www.learntheconstitution.com/social-welfare.html

        [...]

        Within a short time the Americans, as a people, were on the way top becoming the most prosperous and best-educated nation in the world. The key was using the government to protect equal rights, not to provide equal things. Samuel Adams said the ideas of a welfare state were made unconstitutional by the Founders:

        “The utopian schemes of leveling (redistribution of the wealth) and a community of goods (central ownership of all the means of production and distribution) are as visionary and impracticable as those which vest all property in the Crown. (These ideas) are arbitrary, despotic, and, in our government, unconstitutional.”

        [...]

        Franklin wrote a whole essay on the subject and told one of his friends:

        “I have long been of your opinion, that your legal provision for the poor (in England ) is a very great evil, operating as it does to the encouragement of idleness. We have followed your example, and begin now to see our error, and, I hope, shall reform it.”

        [...]

        Franklin wrote:

        “To relieve the misfortunes of our fellow creatures is concurring with the Deity; it is godlike; but, if we provide encouragement for laziness, and supports for folly, may we not be found fighting against the order of God and Nature, which perhaps has appointed want and misery as the proper punishments for, and cautions against, as well as necessary consequences of, idleness and extravagance? When ever we attempt to amend the scheme of Providence , and to interfere with the government of the world, we had need be very circumspect, lest we do more harm than good.”

        [...]

        The U. S. Constitution states in Article I, section 8: The people of the states empower the Congress to expend money (for the enumerated purposes listed in Article I, section 8), provided it is done in a way that benefits the general welfare of the whole people.

        Thomas Jefferson explained that this clause was not a grant of power to “spend” for the general welfare of the people, but was intended to “limit the power of taxation” to matters which provided for the welfare of “the Union ” or the welfare of the whole nation. In other words, federal taxes could not be levied for states, countries, cities, or special interest groups. (Making of America p 387)

    • Unfortunately justanita and her “Doctors in Constitutional Law” has no answer for my question.

      Plus she lies about Obama. He as never a Professor of anything.

  72. [...] most notably in recent articles by the New York Times and Washington Post. Over the weekend, an open letter was addressed to Park by a member of the Tea Party movement (this writer) welcoming “civility [...]

  73. My apologies to all for not keep up with the conversation. As you can see, there are now 200+ comments. I like to keep momentum going with new content. That requires focus. I have been in contact with Ms. Park and will likely be arranging/attending some sort of local summit with Tea and Coffee Partiers. It sounds like similar efforts will be made nationwide.

  74. What happened to the calm, reasoned discussion idea? Now you are sounding just like all the other hotheads on both sides. Using words like “retarded” only fuels the fire

    • “What happened to the calm, reasoned discussion idea? ”

      Well I looked all over and don’t see you anywhere in it.

  75. NEITHER TEA OR COFFEE

    Early on, I was somewhat intriqued and interested in the tea party. Initially some, but by no means not all. advocating this movement were genually interested in establishing a non-partisan, non-ideological grabb rootf political monement in the land which would work for openess and the renewal and revitalization of our political sydtem and choices, Unfortunately, by the time my wife and I tentavilly decided to affiliate with the movement, it was highjacked and taken ove by crazies, racists and/or estabilished rightwing ultre conservative, mostly republican, politicians and their media allies.
    We didn’t join and instead frequently criticized and were at odds with the droup or, at least. some of its members.

    We were glad,almost two years latet, to see an alternative, calling itself, “the coffee party” emerge, We were more apt to be in agreement with these folk, as you might define us as slightly left oj center progressive advocates or members of what I call “the radical center,” Although we view this group as a necessary corrective to the tea party movement, we will not join it. Why? because it is or soon will be ideolgical also. It will likely brcome the handmaiden of the liberal wingof the democratic party. While that could be helpful given todays volitile partisanship, it is not, I beleve, ehat is most needed.

    I call,only half seriously for the creation of a grass roots moveent ( or would it be a wheat,barley.or hops root movement called “the beer party”. This group would be a non-idrological,
    relaxed,non-moralist,rationale group of people who knew how to compromise and respected people even ehen it disagreed with them. It would limit its beer intake as it would realize the bottle is not a magical dure-all (neither is government) , although it is an acceptable stimulant when used in moderation.

    Seriously folks, let us not have ” a grass roots movement, let us be ” a grass roots monement, I’ll drink to that.

    • It seems odd to expect a lack of ideology within an group of activists. If you have no overriding ideology, what is the point of meeting? What action could you possibly advocate absent an underlying ideology? Even the objectives you cite, transparency and accountability in government, are indicative of a classically liberal ideology. More oligarchical ideologies would advocate less transparency and elitism.

      The Tea Party means different things to different people, but is generally focused on fiscal responsibility, limited government, and free enterprise. These are general principles with potential to encompass a broad swath of specific ideas and policies. They are non-partisan, insomuch as any party may embrace them. They are also quintessentially American, as evidenced by a plain reading of the documents central to and surrounding our Founding. I understand a group that is non-partisan. I’m not sure I see the point of a group which is non-ideological. I certainly don’t see the point of a group which abandons any concept of morality. A compromise club with no principle or solid foundation seems both impotent and nonsensical.


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